Question: 20 yard vs 50 yard Opportunities

Beaver · Post by **Beaver** » Wed Sep 06, 2006 12:07 pm

Rich

I used an Easton ballistics calculator program. It lets you enter the length of the arrow, fletch type, fletch height, helical or not, arrow weight, and arrow launch speed. IF you have a chrono it also lets you input actual chrono speeds at any given yardage then calculates for any yardage beyond that up to 100 yards.

What I said above assumes the arrow shot 180 deg, level to the ground, no zero at any yardage. The figures would be the actual drop at those ranges. If you had a 30 yard zero, the 50 yard drop would be much less but would require estimated holdover to compensate for the arch. A way around this would be to have a multiple pin/reticle sight.

My program says that the mid range trajectory, if there were a 50 yard zero or if you were holding over enough to be on at 50 yards would be on the order of 57 inches.

I have some actual data where my boy and I actually shot two different arows through a chrono out to 50 yards if you would like for me to post them.

Beaver · Post by **Beaver** » Wed Sep 06, 2006 12:51 pm

Rich

Thought you might like this just for fun

I have a 2005 Vixen. It has the factory string, cat whiskers on the string, limb savers as far out on the belly of the limb as I can get them, limb savers at the limb pockets, and limb savers on the side of the rail just below the string.

I have two arrows that I use and they are identical except for the fletch. It is a 20 inch 2219 shaft, Easton inserts in each end, Muzzy 4 blade 100 grain broadhead(practice blades here) and either 4.75 inch vanes or 5 inch shield cut feathers.

The arrows with vanes weigh an actual scale weighed average of 455 grains. From a Ramsey chrono, they leave the bow at an average of 260 fps.
Chrono at 10 yards.....................256fps........66 ft lbs
Chrono at 20 yards.....................252fps........64 ft lbs
Chrono at 30 yards.....................247fps........62 ft lbs
Chrono at 40 yards.....................243fps........60 ft lbs
Calculated at 50 yards from above data and Easton calculator:
Calculated at 50 yards.................240 fps........58 ft lbs

The arrow with the feather fletch weigh an average of 438 grains and leave the bow at an average speed of 265 fps.
Chrono at 10 yards......................257fps........64 ft lbs
Chrono at 20 yards......................250fps........61 ft lbs
Chrono at 30 yards......................243fps........57 ft lbs
Chrono at 40 yards......................236fps........54 ft lbs
Calculated at 50 yards..................229fps........51 ft lbs

With field points, I shot both arrows through the chrono at 50 yards.
Vanes at 50 yards........248fps
Feathers at 50 yards.....231fps

I used an old Herters double bench rest for all shooting. The front unit has michrometer windage and elevation, is V padded and weighs about 40-50 pounds. The rear unit has michrometer windage and elevation, is flat padded, and weighs 20 pounds or so.

Out to 50 yards, the feathers were more accurate than the vanes with the 4 blade Muzzy. The field points were so close that I couldn't call one better than the other.

My boy has the Exomag. He shoots the 455 grain arrow with a mechanical head. Double rest through the chrone he is still getting 308 fps and 96 ft lbs at 50 yards

I hope to get access to that chrono again maybe later this month. I am thinking about some 4 inch feather fletch, 85 gain broadhead, but still 2219 shaft.

Frank

ninepointer · Post by **ninepointer** » Wed Sep 06, 2006 3:15 pm

I think most Excal shooters are capable of shooting tight groups around the bullseye at 50 yards at the archery range. But as the others have mentioned, the problem in a hunting situation is all the variables:

- misjudging distance
- deer jumping the string
- other unexpected movements by the deer
- sharp trajectory arc and objects along the way
- wind

I think there was a post on this forum that included a photo of a guy in Europe using an Excal to compete in 100 yard crossbow competitions. The point of it was that these guys could be deadly accurate at a measured 100 yards, but couldn't hit paper if this distance changed even slightly.

I do think that some very experienced shooters can hunt out to 50 yards (Fred Bear did this all the time), but for most of us the 20 or 30 yard rule should apply.

Ninepointer

knobby · Post by **knobby** » Thu Dec 21, 2006 11:27 am

Beaver wrote:Rich

Thought you might like this just for fun

I have a 2005 Vixen. It has the factory string, cat whiskers on the string, limb savers as far out on the belly of the limb as I can get them, limb savers at the limb pockets, and limb savers on the side of the rail just below the string.

I have two arrows that I use and they are identical except for the fletch. It is a 20 inch 2219 shaft, Easton inserts in each end, Muzzy 4 blade 100 grain broadhead(practice blades here) and either 4.75 inch vanes or 5 inch shield cut feathers.

The arrows with vanes weigh an actual scale weighed average of 455 grains. From a Ramsey chrono, they leave the bow at an average of 260 fps.
Chrono at 10 yards.....................256fps........66 ft lbs
Chrono at 20 yards.....................252fps........64 ft lbs
Chrono at 30 yards.....................247fps........62 ft lbs
Chrono at 40 yards.....................243fps........60 ft lbs
Calculated at 50 yards from above data and Easton calculator:
Calculated at 50 yards.................240 fps........58 ft lbs

The arrow with the feather fletch weigh an average of 438 grains and leave the bow at an average speed of 265 fps.
Chrono at 10 yards......................257fps........64 ft lbs
Chrono at 20 yards......................250fps........61 ft lbs
Chrono at 30 yards......................243fps........57 ft lbs
Chrono at 40 yards......................236fps........54 ft lbs
Calculated at 50 yards..................229fps........51 ft lbs

With field points, I shot both arrows through the chrono at 50 yards.
Vanes at 50 yards........248fps
Feathers at 50 yards.....231fps

I used an old Herters double bench rest for all shooting. The front unit has michrometer windage and elevation, is V padded and weighs about 40-50 pounds. The rear unit has michrometer windage and elevation, is flat padded, and weighs 20 pounds or so.

Out to 50 yards, the feathers were more accurate than the vanes with the 4 blade Muzzy. The field points were so close that I couldn't call one better than the other.

My boy has the Exomag. He shoots the 455 grain arrow with a mechanical head. Double rest through the chrone he is still getting 308 fps and 96 ft lbs at 50 yards

I hope to get access to that chrono again maybe later this month. I am thinking about some 4 inch feather fletch, 85 gain broadhead, but still 2219 shaft.

Frank

cool !

I often wondered if anyone ever took the time to do this type of testing.

I would have expected the arrows to be slowing down at a faster rate than that. It good to know that even 50 yards downrange the bolt still has some zip to it.

sumner4991 · Post by **sumner4991** » Sun Dec 24, 2006 12:22 am

The whitetail deer can not "jump the string" of today's high speed crossbows at 50 yards(there are hunters that take exception to that claim. . .however, they claim they don't take 50 yard shots). Maybe I'm wrong . . .I just have not found that deer yet nor have I been shown any evidence to prove me wrong.

As far as all those possible errors . . .they are certainly there at 40 and 30 yards too. I had trouble making 20 yard shots when I first started bow hunting. Did I quit because it was unethical for me to be shooting deer at 20 yards? No and I'm glad I didn't. Experience and practice will almost eliminate those error possibilities(using all the proper tools will help too).

Now . . .I don't think there is a "hunter" out there that passes on the 10 yard shot to see if they can make a 50 yard shot, that's unethical.

It is ethical when you have done everything possible to prepare for your shot in practice. Make practice shots in hunting conditions. Then, when you are very confident . . .make that 50 yard shot. It's no different from making your first 20, 30 or 40 yard shot. You will make errors, only practice will correct that . . .yeah, I mean practicing on live deer. Sounds unethical . . .however, everytime a new hunter takes his first shot on a live deer, it's a bit unethical. Regardless of the weapon or the distance.

I say, practice your shot and take it, no matter what the distance. However, only take the shots you are very confident in making. Throwing a bolt in the air "just to see how close you can come" is not hunting and is unethical.

Now . . .go shoot your bow and have some fun.

Tom · Post by **Tom** » Sun Dec 24, 2006 8:34 am

sumner4991 wrote:The whitetail deer can not "jump the string" of today's high speed crossbows at 50 yards(there are hunters that take exception to that claim. . .

Sumner4991 we have been over this many times on this forum with others as well as with you personally. I totally feel that your statement above is Totally irrisponsible. There have been data produced before (sorry can't find it currently) that proves that deer can react in time to move from an arrow shot past forty yards. Do the math and you can see it for yourself.

It is also unethical to take shots as to where there is a good chance to only wound a deer. If after you take the shot, there is enough time for the deer to move enough to create a bad hit, weither it from moving on its own or reacting from the sound, it is uneithical to take that shot. All you have to do DO THE MATH ...... ARROW SPEED, DISTANCE, & REACTION TIME.

I understand that you will not change your mind on this which is sad. That is fine for you, But Do Not Mislead Others With Your Beliefs. This forum is run by Excalibur to provide a service to teach people about crossbows and their proper capabilities.

sumner4991 · Post by **sumner4991** » Sun Dec 24, 2006 9:15 am

Tom . . .I'm not so old and set in my ways that I can not be taught. It is not my job to set limits for another hunter. That responsibility is solely on the shoulders of the hunter. I personally will not take a 100 yard shot at a whitetail, doesn't mean it's irresponsible for a seasoned professional to take that shot. Human error is responsible for the majority of misses. A responsible hunter will become a marksman before taking a shot out of their predetermined comfort zone. Regardless of where that zone typically ends. The way we get better at anything is trial and error. If you are not willing to try, then there is no getting better. However, staying in your comfort zone will not eliminate errors. Now, will a seasoned professional have as many errors at 50 yards as a novice does at 30 . . .probably not. How does that novice get to be a seasoned professional? By preparing and practicing.

Maybe a deer can jump the string of a slow moving arrow. I have really seen no proof that a deer jumping a arrow or a bolt at a faster speed. In all my years of bowhunting, I have never had a deer "jump the string" . . .I was using a 70# draw weight, compound and made several 35 and 40 yard shots with deer looking at me. If they jumped, then they happened to jump into my arrow. Maybe I hunt stupid deer. Maybe I've been real lucky . . .extremely lucky.

All I'm saying is . . .I have no proof that a deer will jump a arrow or a bolt fired from today's high speed weapons. If I get some solid proof, then my mind is changed.

When applying mathmatics to human(animal) situations, you have a varible of human/animal reaction(or lack of). There is absolutely no way to prove mathmatically that a deer will jump a bolt/arrow at a certain speed. You can run a test several times with a human(such as braking reaction time) and then take a average to determine safety . . .can not run that test with wild animals . . .or can we?

There is also a solid arguement that a deer will not react to non-metallic sounds at a longer distance. At least not to produce the type of reaction that would allow the deer to "jump the string".

We disagree, no big deal.

rutman · Post by **rutman** » Sun Dec 24, 2006 9:16 am

I agree with Tom, my old wolverine at 20yrds, at an un-alert deer required an aim point of the white chest hair at the bottom of the crease behind the front leg. The deer always dropped for a decent shot. I even spined some alert deer doing the same program. My paradox balances this problem out so I can aim where I want the entrance at 20 but I use the same horizontal at 30 and the deer still drop for me. My bow is sighted at 1" high at 20 yrds. It works for me!

Tom · Post by **Tom** » Sun Dec 24, 2006 9:55 am

Sumner I am not replying to your post to try to convince you, only to educate others that long distance shots is not a good choice to make. As for acuracy, I have been able to shoot 60 -65 yards OFF HAND and hit 2" targets (usually inside one inch) so I know the bow is accurate and so am I with it. Yes is tis fun to shoot these distances at fixed targets.

But math proves that DEER can move before the arrow can get there on 65 yard shots, even with todays 350fps bows. If you do not want to do the math, just stand down range (saftely behind a solid wall or something) and listen to the shot. I bet you will even flinch before the arrow hits the target. Everyone knows that deer can react an extreem amount faster then humans can. IF you have a good quality recorder, that might even work to give you the difference in time of when the arrow strikes against the the shot, but nothing like getting first hand knowledge of being down range ans subjecting yourself to what a deer will hear.

The data I mentioned earlier was put forth by people that studied deer and their reaction times and they used those times in their math, not human times or a guess on a deer's reactime time.

Again I know we will never convince you, just trying to make sure you willnot mislead others.

rutman · Post by **rutman** » Sun Dec 24, 2006 10:39 am

Here is something to look at. I like the slow motion forward and back demo. Mind you it doesn't say he's shooting lightning speeds or anything like that.http://www.bowsite.com/BOWSITE/features ... ngjumping/

rutman · Post by **rutman** » Sun Dec 24, 2006 10:41 am

Sorry, I don't know how to get the link to work. Maybe just type it in.

sumner4991 · Post by **sumner4991** » Sun Dec 24, 2006 12:58 pm

rutman . . .the author indicates. . ."Most of my visitors know that I shoot longbows and recurves". Looks to me from the camera angle that he missed the shot, probably on purpose to have a good story for his website. I also believe the deer reacts to the arrow, not the string.

Tom . . .never have I suggested that a long shot is a good choice. The long shot is just that , a "long shot". And as suggested in gaming, only high risk takers enjoy betting on the "long shot". It's a higher risk shot for sure. However, the shot can be a consistant kill for the hunter that prepares for and practices that shot. A long shot for some is a 30 yard shot, others 50, others 75 . . .it's a matter of expertise. Same thing with taking a shot at a deer on the move. I know a guy that is great at that shot . . .I stink at it and never take a shot on a moving deer(regardless of the weapon or distance). Now, that shot is routine for him and unethical for me. Same is true for the 50 yard bow shot. As far as your math arguement . . .there is no equation that can accurately prove that a deer will jump. Maybe that a deer would have time to move . . .doesn't mean it will move, thus the expression "like a deer in the headlights". As you said, a deer can move . . .well, a deer can move at 30 yards or 20 yards. However, the deer at 20 and 30 yards don't generally move either . . .but they can.

No doubt guys, a shorter shot is a better shot. Doesn't mean you can't be very good at a longer shot. It just takes a lot of time and practice.

Tom · Post by **Tom** » Sun Dec 24, 2006 4:14 pm

sumner4991 wrote:.... .well, a deer can move at 30 yards or 20 yards. However, the deer at 20 and 30 yards don't generally move either . . .but they can.

No doubt guys, a shorter shot is a better shot. Doesn't mean you can't be very good at a longer shot. It just takes a lot of time and practice.

That is the thing Sumner4991, on the shorter shots, the deer does not have time to move. When you do the math, the arrow is on target before the reaction time starts the deer moving, but after 40-45 yards when you subtract the reaction time from the time it takes the arrow to get that distance, you are now giving the deer time to move and the greater the distance, the more time (after reaction time) the deer will have to move before the arrow gets there.

Like I said, If you do not want to DO THE MATH, stand down range (safetly) at 60-65 yards and wait for the shot. I bet you will flintch. I have Data behind my statements, all you have is a gut feeling and nothing more so please stop trying to mislead people that it

the shot can be a consistant kill for the hunter that prepares for and practices that shot.

because it does not matter if your an ace shot after the arrow flies, what matters is that the deer just happens to not move. At the longer distances, the deer has more time to move before the arrow gets there.

Woody Williams · Post by **Woody Williams** » Sun Dec 24, 2006 4:35 pm

The final word..

http://www.horizontalbowhunter.com/news/news.asp?ID=22

Scroll down to …

STRING JUMP SOLUTIONS

sumner4991 · Post by **sumner4991** » Sun Dec 24, 2006 5:56 pm

Woody. . . thanks.

Still a lot of "if's" in the equation. He says, "today I’ll shoot out past 30 yards without any concern for string jump." . . .yet he doesn't limit the distance to any number.

It's one thing for the deer to have a chance to react . . .it's another thing for the deer to actually react and move the vitals out of the way. How much time should be allowed for that? That would depend on the size of the deer among other factors such as soft ground.

A young hunter should be way more concerned on marksmanship than string jump. Work on the things you can control . . .do not worry about the things you can not control.