Rethinking our range. Is it B.S.?

Tigerpaw · Post by **Tigerpaw** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 7:35 pm

Yesterday I began to rethink my range limits.

I was in stand watching the blue jays and gray, red, black, squirrels when I started to think of a time when I was 9yrs old in Georgia. I had an older couple that lived 1/2 a mile from my home and I spent most of 4 summers at their home. The older gentlemen gave me my first game cocks to breed and fight, his wife cooked me my first squirrel dumplings!! MMMMmmmm GOOD. She knew that I loved to hunt the local population of critters and told me the next time I got a passel of squirrels to bring them over and she would cook them up!!

Fast forward to yesterday, After recalling this past memory I had a plump squirrel stop 40 yards out from my stand. To make a short story shorter I pulled up put the mark on him and pulled the release. The broad head cut him deep on the left side of his neck. He fell and bleed out right on the spot. Now here is were the rethinking range comes in. If a good Excalibur can take a squirrel at 40 yrds why do I hold myself to a 30 yard shot or less?? If you can take a squirrel at 40yards then surly a deer should not be a problem!!

P.S. To nights squirrel dumplings were not like my first but were darn good non the less.

TYE · Post by **TYE** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 7:39 pm

Nice shot!

I've never ate squirrel, nore do I know how to cut one up/clean/field dress whatever its called for a squirrel.

Also, I wouldn't think twice about shooting a deer at 40 yards. If I had a clear shot, and the deer was broadside or quartering away, perfect. I'd take that shot at 40 yards. Because I know I can hit the bullseye out to 60 yards. I practice at 30 and 40 yards alot. I would be second guessing a shot at 50 yards though. Don't think I would take anything over 40.

Golden Eagle · Post by **Golden Eagle** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 8:14 pm

My reason is that deer jump the string so bad. They are always wound tight and our bows are so loud. Just my reasoning. I have total faith in my bow out to 50 yards but not in the deer being still.

Grizzly Adam · Post by **Grizzly Adam** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 6:12 am

I haven't shot a deer at 40 yards with my crossbow yet, but if an acceptable shot opportunity presented itself, I would not hesitate. I do not base this on crossbow experience, but rather on extensive bowhunting experience. An arrow is an arrow, and an arrow traveling at the speed my Exomax puts them out is an arrow capable of 40 yard shots, whether the bow is noisy or not.

In my practice, the 'Max gets arrows into the bull at 40 yards in what seems to be less than a half second ... the sound of firing and impact is "BAM-bup!" Just say "target" out loud to yourself in a normal voice and you have an idea of the time I'm talking about.

The average calm deer isn't going to get out of the way of that arrow in that time-frame. Are there exceptions? Of course. Do they disprove the rule? No way. Again, on average, you're going to be OK if your arrow speeds are in the 300 fps range ... if you're accurate.

The deer may well begin to drop a bit as the arrow nears from 10 yards or so out, but that's not a problem. Just aim for a heart shot, or the lower part of the lungs (depending on your angle, of course), and you're still going to smack him or her proper, even if they do begin to spring-load on you.

I have killed lots of deer at 40 yards with compound equipment. It just takes a deer that isn't about to jet, being careful and knowing what your arrow is doing, and taking the best low shot available (that's a personal preference; I've found it helpful).

All that being said, I think 40 is just about it for reliable consistency in bowhunting, and 40 is not to be taken casually. I believe a 40 yard bow shot is like a 300 yard rifle shot ... one to take very carefully, in the right conditions.

wabi · Post by **wabi** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 6:47 am

If a good Excalibur can take a squirrel at 40 yrds why do I hold myself to a 30 yard shot or less??

If a squirrel moves during the shot you miss - if a deer moves you could cause a slow death and loose him. Good enough reason to keep me from shooting!

Corvus · Post by **Corvus** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 8:25 am

My thoughts exactly, Wabi. Risk vs Reward.

Makomachine · Post by **Makomachine** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 8:30 am

wabi wrote:
If a good Excalibur can take a squirrel at 40 yrds why do I hold myself to a 30 yard shot or less??
If a squirrel moves during the shot you miss - if a deer moves you could cause a slow death and loose him. Good enough reason to keep me from shooting!

Ditto - with the squirrel you more than likely get two of the best shots in bowhunting.

A) lethal hit
B) clean miss

sumner4991 · Post by **sumner4991** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 9:12 am

A properly prepared hunter can easily make much longer shots than 30 and 40 yards. Can a hunter get properly prepared is the question.

Here are things that need to be done . . .

1. Aim small, miss small . . .aim for the center of the heart, not behind the front leg.
2. Practice until you can not miss at all yardages up to your max . . .because we rarely get a exact yardage shot
3. Make sure your bolt/broadheads are perfect
4. Make sure your hunting conditions are near perfect
5. Weather conditions need to be very good.

Additionals????

Once you get everything within a hunter's control , well under control, then you may decide to stick to a 30 yard shot. Not many hunters have the time to properly prepare for a "long" shot. The short shots certainly allow for a lot of error.

I'd like to hear from people that actually make "long shots" consistantly with their crossbow. Please tell us how you prepare for a "long" shot.

Grizzly Adam · Post by **Grizzly Adam** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 9:28 am

Know what?

I doubt we will ever all agree about what a responsible maximum shooting range is.

I doubt this thread can continue long without becoming another controversy about what's too long and what's not.

I wonder if it wouldn't be best if we all just paddle our own shooting canoes? I love this forum, and I love to discuss matters important to bowhunting, but I'm seriously questioning whether we can ever really get anywhere with this topic.

One man thinks forty yards and under is OK. Another prefers thirty. Someone else holds it to twenty. Yet another insists that fifty isn't impossible, while still another says sixty is all right.

All such suppositions are acceptable, based on individual experience ... but what is not acceptable is when the content and tone of threads go south because we can't come to any consensus.

I've come to appreciate this forum and it's contributors as I have appreciated no other, because of the helpful, reasonable, fun and respectful environment hereon. I guess I'm afraid this particular subject is such fodder for contention that maybe we'd be better off to agree to disagree, and let it be.

Just me thinking out loud via keyboard.

Wanting the best for our forum,

Edit: Thought I'd better say that nothing personal is intended toward anyone; just want us all to be civil and helpful, and as united as possible.

sumner4991 · Post by **sumner4991** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 10:11 am

I agree with that Grizz! Everyone has their comfort zone and if they are content with that zone, then that's great.

grandtrout · Post by **grandtrout** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 10:22 am

Lots of posts on long shots lately!

When I started bowhunting I had a great mentor - the guy is an actual bowhunting lunitic. He would do everything down to painting his ear lobes and putting baking soda on his ass before entering the bush just incase he farted on the walk in. He is obsessive about his gear & his hunt and used every tactic he could to get close & make the perfect shot. Before each season he would set up 6 inch pie plates at unknown ranges and shoot 5 arrows at each. If he could put all five arrows on a pie plate at 50 yards than he felt he was good to go at 40. His explanation was that the 10 yard buffer was required becuse "stuff just happens in the bush" For moose he used 8 inch pie plates. He did the test wearing his hunting clothes, head net and shooting broadheads. If he was hunting from a tree he would do the test from a tree. I've tried to make this test part of my pre-season routine - with a recurve I can hunt to 20 yards - my compund around 35 & the excal about 50.

If you can make the shot using exactly the same setup you would under hunting conditions then you get into to the noise debate with a crossbow - will a crossbow cause the average deer to "jump the string" when a perfect shot is fired. This debate doesn't seem to hapen as much in the vertical world - your effective range is limited primarily by shooting ability - noise is concidered somewhat less significant & most modern compounds equiped with an assortment of rubber nobs etc tend to be extreamly quiet anyway. Intrestingly, if you look at how the compound world has evolved in last 15 years noise & vibration is the big improvement - not speed. String jumping was a much bigger issue 20 years ago with compounds than it is today. In the late 80's some bowhunting experts used the 18 - 35 rule -if a deer less than 18 yards or more than 35 yards the liklyhood of a string jump reaction with a shot was much less.

So if you want to hunt at longer ranges with a crossbow (beyond say 35 yards) you need to need to shoot well at that range and stop /reduce the noise that a crossbow makes. If you can't quiet a crossbow enough than maybe the rule should be 30 - 45 no-shoot. But at 50 yards you had better be absolutely sure of range becuse even with the max @ 350 fps you still need to get the range right within 10 feet or you miss a 6 inch target. Use the pie plate formula above for calculating effective range and you have to guess the range within about 8 feet at 60 yards shooting 350fps to be good to go hunting at 50 yards.

Watch the video of the guy shooting the fallow deer in Italy at long range and then checkout his web site. The deer doesn't move from the noise of the bow & the shooter is in a great position. It's pretty obvious from his website this lad is one serious crossbow hunter - I don't think his long range shot is unethical in the least. But hunters buying crossbows shooting them once or twice with field points - slaping on broadheads and heading for the bush shouldn't be shooting at more than a stones throw distance or its un-ethical. Go to Bass-pro the week before the season starts if you want to meet this guy - he's there every 5 mins.

JB

Highlander · Post by **Highlander** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 10:27 am

Griz,

With all due respect, I see nothing wrong in debating and disagreeing. Sometimes you learn a thing or two even from a viewpoint that you completely disagree with. It is vitally important, as you suggest, that we keep it civil though. I'm behind you on that all the way.
Personally, I am of the thirty yard and under school of thought but this thread has caused me to question if I might extend my range with the right amount of good practice and attention to detail.

Even so, when all is said and done, each person must do what is right for his or her own level of skill and confidence. Whatever advice you pick up on this forum, ulitimately the responsibility for critical thinking and the decision to use it, lies squarely on your own shoulders. I think we all know that. You can't blame anyone but yourself; no one can take you where you didn't want to go in the first place.

Other opinions either reinforce or cause you to question your methods. Both things are healthy.

Grizzly Adam · Post by **Grizzly Adam** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 11:09 am

I'm not opining that opinions aren't important, or debating that debates aren't useful. Anything but.

I just think some of the comments generated by discussion on this particular subject have been less than helpful, and even harmful to the overall atmosphere of this forum.

I must not be the only one who thinks so, since one such controversy disappeared from our midst!

Always open to healthy discussion, and always wanting the best for all.

Highlander · Post by **Highlander** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 12:32 pm

I think keeping the discussion on the high road is important too. But as long as we do that, lets hear it all. I find it interesting that there are two seemingly distinct schools of thought on this. I wonder if the local terrain, hunting techniques, and deer herd numbers also affect these decisions?

grandtrout · Post by **grandtrout** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 12:58 pm

Tigerpaw started this thread because he made a great shot on a tiny target a 40 yards. These are memorable shots. Alot more memorable than a miss on the same critter at 25 yards. The successful long range shot reinforces our thinking alot more than the misses. It's consitant shooting that needs to be concidered becuse we can all make those crazy one off shots at some point. 15 years ago my dad shot a garter snake with a recurve from around 20 yards out of a tree stand while it slid down a fallen log. Impressive beyond belief - but has nothing to do with his effective range. I got a grouse a few weeks ago with my excal at 70 yards - dumb luck but I'll never forget the shot. The experiences reinforce the idea that these are makeable shots were misses are easy to forget - i've missed hundreds shots on grouse, bunnys etc. over the last 15 years and frankly i don't remember any of them as clearly as the snake wraped around a cedar shaft or the grouse that I got at 40 with a recurve 10 years ago.
I think its great to discuss long range shots & constantly concider our limits. Does it increase the potential of someone making a stupid shot a deer - i hope not - if anything i would hope that it shows the effort required to put together a positive bowhunting experience. Its way more fun if you make clean kills all the time - it sucks bigtime if you have a long tracking job ending in dissapointment.