new carbon express bolts

[shurite44]

The rocket analogy is interesting. At first I thought is that really ballistics, well yes it is. But it is different in a very important way, like an aircraft a rocket carries it's propulsion system with it. So at least until burn out, it does not have the same type of ballistic behavior as a bolt or bullet. A bolt or bullet begins to lose energy immediately and then has a degrading velocity until it hits the target. So in general at that point it is greatly effected by wind, air resistance, and lift. A guided rocket on the other hand is overcoming these forces until burn out, at that point, yes it is effected just like a bolt.

Just thought I would throw that in as food for thought.

[Big John]

How come no-one is saying anything about "helping out" the different weights with compensating for stability with increased off-set in your fletching, which will keep your patterns (groups) tighter as well. By using a heavier degree of off-set on a shorter, let's say 4"in. fletch, you will improve stability. I have been checking and trying different combo's of 6' and 7' deg. off-set patterns with much better results. It tightens up the groups. This with targets from bench rest, and 3 -D targets from Tree's.

[Doe Master]

I`m with John on this one if you are going to start talking ballistics you have to include twist into the equation as well .

[sumner4991]

John . . .what is the effect of the degree to the fixed blade? I can understand how the extra spin would help a target tip. However, seems like it might have a counter effect on a fixed blade. Extra spin on a mechanical I can easily see as beneficial. Have you shot fixed blades on that set-up? How did they perform?

Shurite . . .in the links, the guy talks about the vanes and if I understand it correctly, the longer vanes stabilize quicker. If that's so, then how do the Blazer vanes claim to get the job done quicker?

There's needs to be an equation that optimizes bolt flight using draw weight, degree fletching, bolt lenght, head weight, vane length . . . .and everything else. I guess the added problem is the different technologies out there.

The only reason I don't see this as a ballistic issue is due to the oscillation factor. I have watched my Gold Tips wobble.

[shurite44]

I don't really know anything about the blazer vane Summer. My ten point and my beemans both have I think a 4 inch, but my Gold tips have a 5 inch.

Hard to say really why they fly better. I don't know that much about all the intricacies of bolt flight. But I do know the setup I have is very accurate. Like I said I never see the tail wagging on the gold tips. But I do on the ten points, now the beeman thunderbolts fly good with 125 grain muzzy's. But I can not group them 3 inches at 50 yards like I can those little fast Gold tips with the nitrons.

Just personal experience, I read a lot of reviews and decided to try that set up and it worked for me nicely. But I shoot the ten points from the vixen, and the beemans from the maxpoint. I mean at 30 yards I can bullseye with any of the xbow/bolt combo's I have. But sometimes I like to move that target way out like 50 yards and that is when you really start to notice bolt flight.

Really all these carbons probably fly pretty darn good. But I will probably try some of these in the link.

[shurite44]

I would love to hear a discussion on vanes. Feather vs plastic, 2-3-4-5- inch, degree offset, blazer vanes. It is just a discussion so if anyone has anything to add feel free. I know very little about that, but I sure would like to learn.

Not my thread but I know summer won't mind.

[sumner4991]

From the Bohning website . . . .


The Blazer™ Vane What It Is And Why It Works.
Bohning's revolutionary new Blazer™ Broadhead Vane has changed the way archers think about arrow guidance, especially with fixed-blade broadheads. Most of us have been led to believe that more is better when it comes to our vanes and feathers making our broadheads fly like our field points. The Blazer™ Vane proves that theory wrong by out performing 4 or 5 inch vanes or feathers…and the Blazer™ is only two inches long. HOW CAN THAT BE POSSIBLE? Independent testing shows that while some spin is necessary for accurate flight, too much can cause your arrow to lose speed very rapidly. What is required is a guidance system that will take over and steer the arrow regardless of what the broadhead is doing. The Blazer™, with its unique design begins steering and correcting immediately. The combination of the steep leading edge angle, and material stiffness, enables the air to flow over the vane in a manner that actually creates lift and leaves the tip of each vane inside undisturbed air. This is similar to the drafting principle used in auto racing. This airflow created by the precise leading edge angle allows the tip of each vane to act like a rudder, which is very noticeable at longer distances with the flatter trajectory Blazer™ vanes provide. Just give the Blazer™ a try and you will believe! Weighs 5 grains, .6 inches high.
Back to Top

Mini Blazer Vane
Download TIFF(RGB, 300 DPI, 270.55kB)
Download JPG(RGB, 300 DPI, 25.86kB)

A 1.5" version of our Blazer vane, designed specifically for target shooters looking for the Blazer's steering capabilities, with less weight. Weighs 3 grains, .4 inches high.
Back to Top

“X” Vane
Download TIFF(RGB, 300 DPI, 718.68kB)
Download JPG(RGB, 300 DPI, 118.69kB)

Target archers are benefiting from our vane options and Bohning's legendary quality and durability. Available in seven vane sizes.

*More Information
100 and 1000 packs available
1.5" Shield (2 grains) .3" high
1.8" (4 grains) .4" high
2" (6 grains) .4" high
2.25" Shield (5 grains) .4" high
2.4" (6 grains) .4" high
3" (8 grains) .5" high
4" LP (9 grains) .4" high
Weights are approximate


Killer Vanes
Download TIFF(RGB, 300 DPI, 364.89kB)
Download JPG(RGB, 300 DPI, 46.92kB)

Hunting vanes available in 4" (12 grains, .5" high) and 5" (15 grains, .6" high).

[Big John]

As bstout stated, the price is always costing something, speed, stability, range. There is always a trade-off. I never use more than a 4"in. vane or feather. To long and different things happen, to much drag, rubbing in the track, way to much spin, etc. Remember, that at thirty yds. and under it doesn't matter much. If you are talking about 40 and 50 yds. plus, then lot's of factors come into play at once. I found that at these distances, the smaller and less dia. Broadheads, combined with smaller vanes, not necessarily Blazer either, but a higher off-set will produce very good groups, (FOC around 12 to 15 percent). As stated somewhat before, the bigger and longer heads will always produce more drag. It is nice that people want to increase the hole size in game they shoot to make tracking easier, but remember there is no Gun hole that big. A 1"in. dia. Broadhead hole is going to make for a lot of hemoriging. At thirty yds. plus or minus a few, not to much will affect your performance. Unless it is extremely windy, then smaller heads, shorter vanes, heavier bolts, will always win. I also believe that the stiffer the vane the better. but I will still use a greater deg. of off-set. The tighter the spin with a small dia. head is the best, IMO anyway. Let the argument continue.

mathias72 does a lot of testing at long range, I'm sure he will pop in with his two cents.

[shurite44]

I like the idea of a little less spin. Although I really don't know how much my bolt spins now. Sort of hard to tell.

I like my combo's I have but it is nice to hear other ideas.

I wonder why a more forward FOC helps grouping. I know it causes a little more drop in trajectory, but what about it helps your grouping accuracy?

[sumner4991]

John . . .how does the off-set effect your speed? Thanks for the input. If I had to pick a combo right now, I would use those CX Maxima crossbolts with blazer 2" vanes and a 100 grain mechanical broadhead . . .I haven't looked at broadheads yet. Getting a 15% FOC should be easy with those CX bolts. I guess the only trouble spot with mechanical blades on the Max is the possibility of them opening before impact. I've heard that double banding is recommended, but, seems to me they would just come up with a better band.

I appreciate all the posts . . .thanks guys!

[sumner4991]

Here's another article . . .

http://www.strictlybowhunting.com/Anov0 ... flight.htm

[pokynojoe]

I hope the oringinal poster doesn't think me impetuous for "cutting" in on this thread. But I have three questions for bstout about FOC as it relates to arrow length.

bstout:
If you would be so kind as to respond.

1. Is there a point at which as the FOC increases you get diminishing returns?

2. In all your trials and experieces do you find the optimum FOC changes as arrow length increases/decreases? I was wondering if you find a "constant" FOC to be optimum regardless of arrow length.

3. If you achieve the optimum FOC, and your arrows spin concentrically, how much of a variable are fletching, inserts, tips? Of course, this is assuming you maintain the same FOC and your arrows spin concentrically, while changing your other arrow components.

Thanks in advance for your considered opinion.

Regards
Joe

[shurite44]

It would seem to me then that if you are using a 100 grain broadhead on a 20 inch bolt, in general the lighter the bolt the more FOC. Maybe that is why my 410's fishtail and my 350's do not with the same broad head.

[sumner4991]

Joe . . .no problem . . .the more questions, the more answers/opinions, the better.

I just had a lengthly discussion with the customer service rep at CX . . .he suggests the a 100 grain mechanical EXP(double banded) with the Hunter Maxima bolt, and the 5" duravanes would be the best set-up that CX could offer for the Exomax for hunting purposes(447 grains). From the discussion, I gather that draws over 175# are not actively being considered a viable source of income because of the small customer base, therefore products designed specifically for a 200-225# draw are very limited at this point in the game. Therefore, producing a optimal set-up will be a little more difficult. As far as the bolt goes . . .I have not found any that are specifically rated for a 225# draw.

[pokynojoe]

Thanks bstout. You've answered my questions. I have "bare-shafted" several different lengths of bolts from time to time, but never really noticed much of a difference, especially as it applies to the ranges one typically encounters with a hunting crossbow. You are, of course, correct in stating that the spine of the arrow increases/decreases with arrow length.

Thanks
Joe