LONG YARDAGE SHOTS

[dougedwards]

I don't see where the subs are anymore powerfull than Holy Black I have shot 777 and Pyrodex and Clear shot and Clean shot before. then go farther if your going to shoot farther. quote]

The days of shooting the powders you mention are over for me. One of the loads that I shoot is 75 grains of Alliant 10x under 300 gr Barnes Original Semi Spitzer in a Harvester Crush Rib Sabot. All of this in 50 caliber Savage 10ml. This load shoots right at 2400 fps which is rather fast for a 50 caliber rifle. However I am currently having a custom made muzzleloader assembled in .375 caliber which should shoot close to 3000 fps without a sabot. Many centerfires don't shoot that fast. Here is a link to such a rifle.

http://swinglock.net/testimonials.htm

This is a crossbow forum and here we are talking rifles but the point is that good equiptment in the hands of capable and knowlegeable hunters equal longer range shooting opportunities in some cases. Someone may say that any shot at a whitetail beyond 20 yards is unethical. Maybe he is right....for him. To make a blanket statement for all hunters under all conditions is reckless in my opinion.

Doug

[dougedwards]

Doug your not going to agree with me because you love your Savage rifle but Your gun is no more the average muzzle loader than a Patriot Missle.

No you are wrong. We totally agree on this point.

To me this is totally getting away from what a muzzle loader season is or was intended and I am not the old school that think you have to shoot a flinter or a caplock either though if that is anyones choice fine.

Some may think that we are getting away from the subject of the thread but I do not. When someone makes a decision for ALL about what is proper or improper this is where it leads. Whether it is how far I should ethically shoot or whether I should be hunting with a crossbow and scope at all is a matter of personal opinion and opinions change.

I happen to use a caplock and a underhammer of my own design but it still conforms with the spirit of what a muzzle loader should be and I have switched back to black powder. If others use the substitutes thats fine too but using smokeless powder in a gun that allows magnum charges and has the flat shooting characteristics of a centerfire IS NOT muzzle loading in my opinion just because you feed the bullet down the muzzle is a moot point your using a powder that does not mimic black powder in the least which is a key part of muzzle loading.

Again I respect your opinion here.

Even the subs mimic black powder so for you to use smokeless and the way it acts is not muzzle loading as it was intended. What your doing is finding a loophole to use a modern rifle during a so called primitive hunt.

Now we have a problem. Do you really think that I am finding a loophole in anything? I had nothing to do with the changing of state game laws. I abide by them. Public demand had everything to do with allowing the use of the most modern muzzleloaders for hunting as it did for crossbows also.

Even then I have no problems with guys using scopes on guns expecially those of us that do not see open sights as well as we used to. I do not have a problem with inlines either if they use a sub powder or the holy black. Choice of bullets even is not an issue with or with out sabots. However I think we have to draw the line using smokeless powder as that is NOT what was intended when these seasons were started. I do not think the Savage gun has made a large dent in muzzle loading or their would be more issues about it but if MORE gun makers start making guns to use smokeless than you will see a stink about using them in primitive seasons its only a matter of time.

Here again we see the use of "I think" used many times and you are certainly granted your own personal opinion. I can promise you that whatever "stink" arises out of this issue will be quickly deoderized as we see the same thing happening across the country concerning bow hunting. Those who choose to hunt in a more primitive fashion should have at it. I won't stand in their way. That is for sure. But there is a faction of people who love smokeless muzzeloading and more and more states are permitting it just as they are for crossbows.

My question for you would be the same question I would ask those who oppose the use of crossbows during archery season. The question would be...."Why?" Why excersise all of this energy when we are both hunting with a weapon of choice? I don't get it. Or at least I hope that I don't.

Doug

[Stalker]

There's a good bunch of people on this site and I still come here to read but I don't post much.

Public demand had everything to do with allowing the use of the most modern muzzleloaders for hunting as it did for crossbows also.

Doug, we are all entitled to use the equipment of our choice within the hunting regulations but I would have to disagree with you that public demand brought modern muzzleloaders into the hunting mainstream. It would be more accurate to say that the lobbyists for the manufacturers are the real reason... the recent explosion in the number of hunters using modern ML's is because of the change in the reg's but before that the numbers were limited to a few fringe target shooters and those kind of numbers don't change policy.... lobbyists that were targeting a new market did.

My question for you would be the same question I would ask those who oppose the use of crossbows during archery season. The question would be...."Why?" Why excersise all of this energy when we are both hunting with a weapon of choice? I don't get it. Or at least I hope that I don't.

I don't oppose anyone hunting with their weapon of choice 'cuz I've used all of them at one time or another but there IS a difference comparing CB's to verticals and modern ML's to traditionals.
Some of my verticals will crony just as fast as some of my xbows using the same arrow weight so the only difference between the 2 is that I don't have to hold the wieght at full draw but everything else remains the same... effective range, wind drift, angle of entry, sight window... et al... the same cannot be said about modern ML's at 3K per sec and 2500lbs of muzzle energy and enough energy at 200yds to still break bone on a risky shot.... so although I don't disagree with anyones choices I would still have to agree with j45gun that moderns are contrary to the original intent of a primitive season.

On the long distance shot topic my personal limit is under 40yds and I'm really careful on the ones between 30 and 40. Me and the group I hunt with regularly practice at 50+ and I've tracked and lost deer that were missed or wounded by guy's that could cut 3 inch groups on targets out to 75yds.... just to many variables.... wind, twigs... one extra step while the arrows in flight... or full broadside changes to quarter on while it's in flight.... remember we are talking about 300-350fps not 2k - 3kfps.

good luck to everybody and be safe

[Hoss]

No matter what you shoot..binnie flip, xbow, smoke poll, high powered rifle, mortar, Howitzer, Sect............shoot within the capabilities of the weapon of choice which should be combined with the expertise of the shooter which all has to do with the elusiveness of the prey. That's the ethical way to maintain respect from all who are concerned which should include ones self. Its a God given right to hunt and feed ourselves from the harvest.Not honoring that principle is a lack of respect for the animal we love to hunt eat and feed our family's. for we are self regulated in the field when it comes to---> should I take that shot. Integrity, Is the name of the game..( Who are you when you are alone) Self check- Fair chase- Bow hunting is about the excitement of overcoming the whitetail's sense. To get past his ears , Eyes, and Nose. It is an awesome feeling that lured me and owned me the first time it happened. When I finally got the chance to send the reaper calling. So for me...I want them close so I can hear the thud of the ribs breaking as the broadhead penatrates his side and watch the blood spill to the ground knowing that's what will lead me to him. The most elusive and hard to get close to creature in the woods That's why we hunt them, All while he The master of the woods, during his last few breathes wonders---> what got me!

[dougedwards]

Doug, we are all entitled to use the equipment of our choice within the hunting regulations but I would have to disagree with you that public demand brought modern muzzleloaders into the hunting mainstream. It would be more accurate to say that the lobbyists for the manufacturers are the real reason... the recent explosion in the number of hunters using modern ML's is because of the change in the reg's but before that the numbers were limited to a few fringe target shooters and those kind of numbers don't change policy.... lobbyists that were targeting a new market did.

I would challenge you to find one shred of evidence to support that statement. In fact most of the major muzzleloader manufacturers enjoy selling the more expensive black powder and all of the little tools that go along with the traditional type of front stuffers. Look to see where you can find Savage Arms advertising the 10ML muzzleloader that shoots black powder or smokeless powder. It lurks way under the radar.

The biggest problem that state regulations had with this issue was defining "black powder substitue". For example Pyrodex is listed as smokeless powder by the DOT. Triple Seven, Black Mag 3 and Goex Clear Shot all have nothing in common with black powder chemically since they contain no sulfur or charcoal. As the state game boards were faced with making distinctions concerning the propellants for muzzleloading rifles, some found that they had to draw the line at black powder only......or allow the use of all gun powder. By the way......black powder is much more dangerous to handle or transport as it is listed as an explosive. Light a match to a pile of black powder and it will explode. The powders that I use in my Savage are very good at starting camp fires but would never explode unless under high pressure.

I don't oppose anyone hunting with their weapon of choice 'cuz I've used all of them at one time or another but there IS a difference comparing CB's to verticals and modern ML's to traditionals.
Some of my verticals will crony just as fast as some of my xbows using the same arrow weight so the only difference between the 2 is that I don't have to hold the wieght at full draw but everything else remains the same... effective range, wind drift, angle of entry, sight window... et al... the same cannot be said about modern ML's at 3K per sec and 2500lbs of muzzle energy and enough energy at 200yds to still break bone on a risky shot.... so although I don't disagree with anyones choices I would still have to agree with j45gun that moderns are contrary to the original intent of a primitive season.

Take that argument into one of the traditional archery forums and see what happens. By the way.....I am assuming that you are speaking of comparing compound bows to crossbows. What about recurves and longbows? Should they not get a primitive season all to themselves?

On the long distance shot topic my personal limit is under 40yds and I'm really careful on the ones between 30 and 40.

I would not disagree with you on your personal limit as it is "personal".
Each person has their own abilities not only to shoot accurately with their respective equiptment but also the ability to know when to shoot. Or if to shoot at all. My only objection would be to anyone who would set standards for other hunters and call them unethical if they didn't compy with said standards. Not trying to be disagreeable here, just pointing out that as time passes some things change. Some things do not. Let's dont' get stuck in the "if God wanted man to fly he would have given him wings" attitude. Many times changes are for good.

[dougedwards]

Doug, if ya used black or a sub in your guns I would not have an issue but your guns as it stands with smokeless powder are not muzzle loaders as intended by those who set up primitive seasons for loading seasons. Hey I am not for banning any guns but in this case it is the powder I have an issue with not the gun.

http://randywakeman.com/ballltd28.htm

http://www.chuckhawks.com/smokeless_pow ... oading.htm

[Stalker]

I would challenge you to find one shred of evidence to support that statement.

no problem..... it's an old page but I can provide the link

Since then, increasing numbers of deer hunters wanting to take advantage of the additional hunting opportunities have gone shopping for muzzleloaders. In Minnesota, for example, muzzleloading hunters have risen from just over 1,000 in 1977 to nearly 10,000 in 1998.

long time from year 0 to 1977.... only 1000 hunters.... not so long between 1977 and 1998... quite a change in numbers though.... might have something to do with Tony Knight and his '85 around the same time....nah couldn't be.... ( by the way.... in-line flintlocks were used in the 1700's and in-line percussion caps in the 1800's so the ideas have been around for a while.... they only started making them when the laws changed and opened a new market.... and the hunter numbers only changed after they were introduced... not the other way around )

last, if the original premise for a primitive season was to make it a component of population control based on success rates then the advent of modern ML's changed that original intent.....

The Muzzleloader Boom

Minnesota held its first special muzzleloader season in 1977. The season didn't make much of a dent in the deer herd. More than 1,000 hunters took part, but they killed only 32 deer.

As muzzleloading hunter numbers have grown, so has their proficiency. The success rate last year during the muzzleloader season was 32 percent, just a tad below the 35 percent rate of regular firearms season hunters.

I'm guessing that the success rate had more to do with equipment and not as much to do with the sudden mass development of Daniel Boone type skills.

it's a debate that has people firmly on both sides so let's just leave it at "to each their own".....

good luck all.

[awshucks]

However I am currently having a custom made muzzleloader assembled in .375 caliber which should shoot close to 3000 fps without a sabot.

By all means, go for it. I consider a 3000 fps M/L to be an oxymoron. The main reason for all the sub powders is the BATF's ruling that black has to be stored in a magazine, where Pyrodex [etal]doesn't.

The current craze of inlines and smokeless in M/L is only to be expected. Progress at the price of tradition.

The problem[s] arise when you start comparing ethical ranges between "muzzle loaders".

[dougedwards]

However I am currently having a custom made muzzleloader assembled in .375 caliber which should shoot close to 3000 fps without a sabot.

Here in Virginia it is illegal to hunt with any less than 45 cal during muzzleloading season but that doesn't stop me from hunting with a .375 during regular firearms season. The guys in my club don't mind that I have only one shot and I don't mind that they hunt with more sophisticated weapons.

By all means, go for it. I consider a 3000 fps M/L to be an oxymoron. The main reason for all the sub powders is the BATF's ruling that black has to be stored in a magazine, where Pyrodex [etal]doesn't.

That statement doesn't define "sub powders". If not black powder, then what characteristics must be present to classify as a "sub powder"? That it shoot slow? How slow? In what type of rifle?

The current craze of inlines and smokeless in M/L is only to be expected. Progress at the price of tradition.

The problem[s] arise when you start comparing ethical ranges between "muzzle loaders".

But of course you dont' consider the current craze of the use of crossbows during "primitive weapons season" as progress at the price of tradition. Well I can tell you that there are many who shoot compounds who think it is. There are also guys who shoot recurves and longbows who think the use of compounds as progress at the price of tradition. I for one was very much opposed to Virginia allowing those stinking muzzleloaders in the woods with us bow hunters during "primitive weapons season" but Virginia among other states thought otherwise.

One thing that we can conclude about the hunters in Minnesota. When you give them what they want they respond in droves. So it is with archery and muzzleloading. Noone is going to stop you from hunting with any weapon that is legal in your state. But to say that 3000 fps used in conjunction with the term muzzleloader is an oxymoron is an indication that change doesn't appeal to you. Well sometimes it doesn't appeal to me either. We could all choose to be super "ethical" and hunt with wooden arrows and longbows such as the American Indian did but I don't see alot of guys doing that.

Things change in life and like it or not, one of those changes is that today muzzleloaders are shooting faster and more accurately than ever before. I am glad that somewhere along the way in life that I discovered that it is wrong for me to dictate the standards for anyone else. The state of Virginia just didnt' really care what I thought about primitive weapons season. They cared about what the hunters in Va. wanted and they were right to do so. But those stinking muzzleloaders sure messed up my honey hole.

[Stalker]

But of course you dont' consider the current craze of the use of crossbows during "primitive weapons season" as progress at the price of tradition. Rolling Eyes Well I can tell you that there are many who shoot compounds who think it is. There are also guys who shoot recurves and longbows who think the use of compounds as progress at the price of tradition.

ummmm.... far be it from me to muddy the the water with... well... facts but crossbows came into being in the 4th century BC and in fact repeating crossbows were in use around the same time...... soooo, given that Hollus Wilber Allen was given the patent for compound bows in 1969 ... I would say that the compound boy's are in need of a history lesson about "primitive"....

those early crossbows were recurve bows set horizontally on a stock, with a mechanism to hold the string back.... sounds familiar....

[Boo]

This is has become a stupid thread.

[HW]

Why Boo because it does not pertain to crossbows anymore? I think it is worth discussing.

What forum is this? This thread started out discussing the range of our beloved Excaibur crossbow. Lets try and get back on track as discussions like this can lead to some bad blood and no one here wants that to happen. Maybe time to move on.

Nights are getting cooler and leaves are changing. I can only think about getting set up with my bow and waiting for the opportunity to fill a tag.

Good luck to all no matter their choice in mechanism.

[Kelley]

Never again will I start a thread on this subject.

[sumner4991]

Kelly . . .if you research my posts, you will see that I too thought longer range whitetail hunting would be easy with my new Exomax. After a couple of field tests, I will not shoot over 40 yards.

I under estimated yardage once and shot under a doe grazing at 60 yards. She didn't jump until after the arrow hit under her. Therefore, I thought it would be feasible to shoot deer at 60 yards without issue. However, so many folks here on the forum were so dead against it, I decided to perform another test. This one on purpose. I found another doe grazing at 65 yards. There was a stump behind her at 50 yards. I shot the stump. I swear, the doe had taken a half leap before the arrow hit the stump. If I had shot at that doe, then I might have hit her in the arse at best.

After that I concluded, deer can hear the arrow coming or the string. Some will move, some will not. I decided not to take that chance, even though I can bury arrow after arrow into a 1 inch dot at 50 yards. Why take the chance?

Scott
P.S. ML's are stinking up the place. Just kidding.

[Kelley]

Thanks Scott. I am rethinking and will know more when I can shoot my new bow. Still waiting on defective part to be replaced. 45 yards was my max with my old bow. BTW I found your homebrew STS system on Google with the Sims Limsavers. Is it still working? Any changes?
Thanks
Kelley