At what point is a bow "too fast"?

[Rich]

A smart guy from Ohio once told me, "speed comes at a price". Let the speed demons have them, I'll stick to the 300-325 FPS models and save the wear and tear on my equipment.

Rich

[Stash]

It would be interesting and benificial to this discussion if someone had facts on the relationship between various speed and a deer's reaction to set a description of what speed means to archery.

Here are some numbers to get people thinking about what extra speed in a crossbow really means under deer hunting situations.

Every deer and every situation is different, so there’s no way to accurately state a deer’s reaction time. But a lot of people, based on examination of hunting video footage, agree that an alert deer ready to move has a minimum reaction time on the order of .25 seconds.

Let’s not get into details like the speed of the arrow dropping at longer distances, or the sound the arrow makes going through the air.

So, rounding off numbers to only 2 decimal places, using 1000 fps as the speed of sound and comparing crossbows at 250, 300, 350 and 400 fps we get:

The distance (feet) to the deer, the time (seconds) for the sound of the shot to get to the deer, the time for the arrow to get to the deer and the time the deer has to react:

250 fps crossbow
Dist -Sound Time--Arrow time--Time to react
50--------.05--------.20-------------.15
75--------.08--------.30-------------.22
100-------.10-------.40--------------.30
125-------.13-------.50--------------.37
150-------.15-------.60--------------.45
“No jump” distance, about 80 feet or 27 yards

300 fps crossbow
Dist -Sound Time--Arrow time--Time to react
50--------.05--------.17-------------.12
75--------.08--------.25-------------.17
100-------.10-------.33--------------.23
125-------.13-------.41--------------.28
150-------.15-------.50--------------.35
“No jump” distance about 105 feet or 34 yards

350 fps crossbow
Dist -Sound Time--Arrow time--Time to react
50--------.05--------.14-------------.09
75--------.08--------.21-------------.13
100-------.10-------.29--------------.19
125-------.13-------.36--------------.23
150-------.15-------.43--------------.28
“No jump” distance about 130 feet or 43 yards


400 fps crossbow
Dist -Sound Time--Arrow time--Time to react
50--------.05--------.13-------------.08
75--------.08--------.19-------------.11
100-------.10-------.25--------------.15
125-------.13-------.31--------------.18
150-------.15-------.38--------------.23
“No jump” distance about 155 feet or 51 yards

Note again, that's for an alert deer that's ready to spring at the slightest noise.

I don't really need to hear from anyone who claims their deer "jumped the string" at 15 yards, unless the deer has had Jedi training.

Disclaimer: I’m not accepting complaints about any typos or arithmetical errors.

[sumner4991]

Sure would be interesting to get Bill T or Peter to respond. What is the word on SPEED? How is it viewed by the industry as a whole? Is the "race" still alive and well? Do you see speed causing issues in the future, especially on hunting regulations?

[Boo]

It would be interesting and benificial to this discussion if someone had facts on the relationship between various speed and a deer's reaction to set a description of what speed means to archery.

Here are some numbers to get people thinking about what extra speed in a crossbow really means under deer hunting situations.

Every deer and every situation is different, so there’s no way to accurately state a deer’s reaction time. But a lot of people, based on examination of hunting video footage, agree that an alert deer ready to move has a minimum reaction time on the order of .25 seconds.

Let’s not get into details like the speed of the arrow dropping at longer distances, or the sound the arrow makes going through the air.

So, rounding off numbers to only 2 decimal places, using 1000 fps as the speed of sound and comparing crossbows at 250, 300, 350 and 400 fps we get:

The distance (feet) to the deer, the time (seconds) for the sound of the shot to get to the deer, the time for the arrow to get to the deer and the time the deer has to react:

250 fps crossbow
Dist -Sound Time--Arrow time--Time to react
50--------.05--------.20-------------.15
75--------.08--------.30-------------.22
100-------.10-------.40--------------.30
125-------.13-------.50--------------.37
150-------.15-------.60--------------.45
“No jump” distance, about 80 feet or 27 yards

300 fps crossbow
Dist -Sound Time--Arrow time--Time to react
50--------.05--------.17-------------.12
75--------.08--------.25-------------.17
100-------.10-------.33--------------.23
125-------.13-------.41--------------.28
150-------.15-------.50--------------.35
“No jump” distance about 105 feet or 34 yards

350 fps crossbow
Dist -Sound Time--Arrow time--Time to react
50--------.05--------.14-------------.09
75--------.08--------.21-------------.13
100-------.10-------.29--------------.19
125-------.13-------.36--------------.23
150-------.15-------.43--------------.28
“No jump” distance about 130 feet or 43 yards


400 fps crossbow
Dist -Sound Time--Arrow time--Time to react
50--------.05--------.13-------------.08
75--------.08--------.19-------------.11
100-------.10-------.25--------------.15
125-------.13-------.31--------------.18
150-------.15-------.38--------------.23
“No jump” distance about 155 feet or 51 yards

Note again, that's for an alert deer that's ready to spring at the slightest noise.

I don't really need to hear from anyone who claims their deer "jumped the string" at 15 yards, unless the deer has had Jedi training.

Disclaimer: I’m not accepting complaints about any typos or arithmetical errors.

Another factor causing deer to react is seeing the limbs move on the shot.

[Limbs and Sticks]

There are a lot of good points made here, as most know they ain't fast enough to suit me, I'am always looking for more, as far as Can. laws that sucks. Stash hit it on the head, the ones I've missed is because I missed, no jumping the string and I've shot them looking and already starting to leave. Speed makes energy, the faster the better,Cossack said it you got those that can shoot and those who can't, Just adding what I think

Wes

[bull_dogg]

So you have to have a PAL now to bow hunt is this true??

[Boo]

So you have to have a PAL now to bow hunt is this true??

No, not at all. Pydpier is expressing fears of that and more.

[longshot44]

The current law indicates that anything 500 fps or more requires firearm registration. I don't believe the government will revise that if a few crossbows exceed that level. For instance .... air guns can be bought without an FAC if their speed is lower than 500 fps, but you require an FAC if they exceed.

The legislation will not change for the worse for a long time .... can you imagine the uproar if they tried to implement it? The Conservatives won't do it for sure .... and the Liberals wouldn't do it unless their memories are REALLY short (how many billion has the registry cost us already? ... do you really think they want another multibillion dollar fiasco over crossbows?).

The worst that will happen is that bows that exceed 500 fps will be banned for sale in Canada (or maybe just for hunting purposes). And from my perspective, that doesn't seem like too bad an option .... sure, I'd like more power (insert Tim Taylor grunt here), but how deep into the ground do you really need to put that bolt after it has passed thru your target?

[Boo]

The current law indicates that anything 500 fps or more requires firearm registration. I don't believe the government will revise that if a few crossbows exceed that level. For instance .... air guns can be bought without an FAC if their speed is lower than 500 fps, but you require an FAC if they exceed.

The legislation will not change for the worse for a long time .... can you imagine the uproar if they tried to implement it? The Conservatives won't do it for sure .... and the Liberals wouldn't do it unless their memories are REALLY short (how many billion has the registry cost us already? ... do you really think they want another multibillion dollar fiasco over crossbows?).

The worst that will happen is that bows that exceed 500 fps will be banned for sale in Canada (or maybe just for hunting purposes). And from my perspective, that doesn't seem like too bad an option .... sure, I'd like more power (insert Tim Taylor grunt here), but how deep into the ground do you really need to put that bolt after it has passed thru your target?

Ah yes but why 500? Why not 450? What would the criteria be? Why would it be banned? Just playing devil's advocate.

[sumner4991]

I guess you could ask this? Is it fast enough?

[Pydpiper]

The current law indicates that anything 500 fps or more requires firearm registration. I don't believe the government will revise that if a few crossbows exceed that level. For instance .... air guns can be bought without an FAC if their speed is lower than 500 fps, but you require an FAC if they exceed.

The legislation will not change for the worse for a long time .... can you imagine the uproar if they tried to implement it? The Conservatives won't do it for sure .... and the Liberals wouldn't do it unless their memories are REALLY short (how many billion has the registry cost us already? ... do you really think they want another multibillion dollar fiasco over crossbows?).

The worst that will happen is that bows that exceed 500 fps will be banned for sale in Canada (or maybe just for hunting purposes). And from my perspective, that doesn't seem like too bad an option .... sure, I'd like more power (insert Tim Taylor grunt here), but how deep into the ground do you really need to put that bolt after it has passed thru your target?

500FPS is only part of the equasion, there is also some Ke mixed in to that law in relation to BB and pellet guns.

As far as the registry, well it already exists and certainly doesn't need to be revised to include crossbows. It's not like they would have to start over, just add another word or two to the current legislation. Adding a serial number is too easy for the CFO, anyone who has ever registered a rifle with no S/N knows the process, they simply mail you one to stick on.
I would hate to see Canada add another item to the "Banned list", but I would rather see that than to have to go through the registration process, or worse yet, scare off new potential archery hunters.
Unfortunatly the government wont sit down and try to figure out which crossbow exceeds the set speeds, they will simply call them "crossbows" and they will all fit in that catergory, no muss, no fuss, the liberal way.

[Stash]

Everyone (Canadians, anyways) throws around that 500 fps rule, but I don't think it would apply to crossbows. From the same RCMP website I mentioned earlier:

Following are some weapons and devices that meet the definition of a firearm but that are deemed not to be firearms for purposes of the Firearms Act and related offences in the Criminal Code.

...snip...

•Air guns and other barreled weapons designed to have:
◦A muzzle velocity of 152.4 meters (500 feet) per second or less and/or
◦A muzzle energy of 5.7 joules (4.2 foot pounds) or less.

Although some companies refer to the rail or track of the crossbow as a "barrel" I don't think that would be the same definition of "barrel" that was intended here. Clearly, in my mind at least, the regulations were not written in anticipation of bows or crossbows or any other non-firearm projectile weapon shooting 500 fps.I know that some home-built rockets for example travel well in excess of that speed but I doubt if PALs are required for these.

[Limbs and Sticks]

What will hurt you boys in Can is them looking like a assault weapon which PYD said he liked awhile back, I said it then and now appearance is what going to hurt not the speed of it.

Wes

[Boo]

What will hurt you boys in Can is them looking like a assault weapon which PYD said he liked awhile back, I said it then and now appearance is what going to hurt not the speed of it.

Wes

How about this one? http://www.crossbownation.com/community ... php?t=6330

[Pydpiper]

Everyone (Canadians, anyways) throws around that 500 fps rule, but I don't think it would apply to crossbows. From the same RCMP website I mentioned earlier:

Following are some weapons and devices that meet the definition of a firearm but that are deemed not to be firearms for purposes of the Firearms Act and related offences in the Criminal Code.

...snip...

•Air guns and other barreled weapons designed to have:
◦A muzzle velocity of 152.4 meters (500 feet) per second or less and/or
◦A muzzle energy of 5.7 joules (4.2 foot pounds) or less.

Although some companies refer to the rail or track of the crossbow as a "barrel" I don't think that would be the same definition of "barrel" that was intended here. Clearly, in my mind at least, the regulations were not written in anticipation of bows or crossbows or any other non-firearm projectile weapon shooting 500 fps.I know that some home-built rockets for example travel well in excess of that speed but I doubt if PALs are required for these.

Knowing what the law curently says we know that a lot of this, at least from a hunting perspective can change overnight, the definition of a broadhead for instance. Regulation opposed to law, I know.
When the definition of a firearm was established it did not consider that bows would reach these speeds, at least not in that timeframe. I would like to go happily skipping along thinking the CFO is just gonna take care of us, because it holds citizens in such high regard, but I am well aware that it looks after it's self first, it will take the easy route with no regard to common sense.
There is no way they will let that slide through. I can make a gun with no barrel that will operate, it does not fit in the above criteria, but rest assured it would still be a gun and would be viewed as one.
I sure hope I am wrong about all this, but I can't see a crossbow flying under the radar of one of the toughest firearm acquisition countries, twice.