Increased range with 405?

[yooper_man]

I don't feel the reason for the Matrix 405 was intended for increasing distant shots at game. It's quite simple, speed sells. I feel many would like the benefit of flatter trajectory.

My personal maximum range at game is 30 yards broadside only, when I had my Equinox or now my Matrix 355. I have passed up broadside deer at 40 yards. I could have probably been successful, but why take the risk.

Andrew

[Hi5]

It stands to reason that there would be some extension of the effective range by an increase in arrow speed. It's all a question of how much. However, to me increased range is a secondary consideration.

My main interest is in being able to push an arrow that has the widest possible cut, but still with penetration. That likely would involve a somewhat heavier arrow. It's a bonus if a heavier arrow is still fast enough to keep trajectory flat enough to make variable distance shots a bit more forgiving. A faster bow should make shooting further possible, but that's just not my main interest.

For shooting smaller big game such as deer, a heavier arrow is less of a concern, but I still want the widest possible cut. Speed is good, if it can push a wide cutting arrow right through a deer. A bigger cut is better, as long as too much has not been sacrificed in penetration performance.

Anyone who refrains for a shot because he fears that his equipment may be lacking has my respect. I had to pass up on an elk in archery season because I couldn't make out my sights well enough. If I had been a good "instinctive" shooter, I could easily have plugged him. I had to pass on the shot.

I want to get a 405 Mega. It won't be for the extra distance capability, although that will be nice. If there's ever a G5 Striker (Extra) magnum, that's what I'll be shooting!!

[JPjunkie]

Im thinking about a pin sight for my 405 Im not gonna start shooting 100 yd shots because its a beast But Ive been thinkin if it shoots as flat as I think its gonna why use a scope I could put 1 pin on it and shoot out to 40 yds Im thinkin

[yooper_man]

I don't feel the reason for the Matrix 405 was intended for increasing distant shots at game. It's quite simple, speed sells. I feel many would like the benefit of flatter trajectory.

My personal maximum range at game is 30 yards broadside only, when I had my Equinox or now my Matrix 355. I have passed up broadside deer at 40 yards. I could have probably been successful, but why take the risk.

Andrew

Plus, I also slowed down my Matrix 355 shooting a 470 grain combined weight arrow with broadhead. I estimate approx 315 FPS, but flat enough to use my single crosshair from 0 - 30 yards. Without a doubt I made it quieter too.

The Matrix 405 operating at top speed will carry added energy to longer ranges, but in turn will more than likely put off more noise. Possibly complicating taking longer shots at game.

Andrew

[nchunterkw]

Strictly speaking in terms of "Deer Reaction Time".....assuming deer reacts to sound (ie calm not looking at you)

Deer Reaction Time (Tr) = Time for Arrow - Time for Sound
Calculating this time at the rated Excal Bow speeds for a 30yd shot:
(30yds chosen as "many" feel this is an ethical shot distance)
305fps - Tr = 215.2mS
330fps - Tr = 192.8mS
355fps - Tr = 173.6mS
380fps - Tr = 156.9mS

Calculating the equivalent distance for the 405fps bow:
Tr = 215.2mS --> 45.36yds
Tr = 192.8mS --> 40.64yds
Tr = 173.6mS --> 36.59yds
Tr = 156.9mS --> 33.08yds

So the math says in terms of reaction time, you can increase your range with the faster bow.....and quite significantly over the lower speed bows. I know this is common sense but I just wanted to put numbers to the feelings. It is still up to each individual to determine their maximum effective range. Just as I said "many" feel 30 yds with a 305fps bow is perfectly fine - "many" others will disagree - which is perfectly fine. As far as accuracy of the bows at these ranges - a non-issue. BUT just because the bow is capable, it is the operator who has the most impact on accuracy.

FWIW, I would like to add that the data collected for actual deer shot distances from members of this forum put the median at 20 yards with only 4 out of 36 between 30 and 35yds, and 16 of 36 less than 20yds.

Finally, I agree with the other posts that the biggest advantage a 405 gives is the ability to shoot a heavier arrow on a flatter trajectory.

[Kegbelly]

Interesting data NChunter, thanks for posting that. IMO the bow would be very capable of delivering an accurate shot at a longer range with enough speed and energy for a clean harvest. The key, as mentioned several times, is the skill and abilities of the person behind the bow and what they feel comfortable and confident in doing.

[Hi5]

Keith

I like it when folks get right down to the precise stuff!

If I understand your analysis correctly, accepting 30 yards as the maximum distance for a 380 FPS bow, you would say that a 405 fps bow would exceed the maximum distance of a 380 FPS bow by 3.08 yards? IT DOESN'T MATTER IF 30 YARDS IS TOO LOW!! That's not the point!

The point is, if your math is right, that's where their performance equates. That's interesting. That's the sort of analysis that I like to see.

For people like me who aren't engineers or math whizzes, do you mind explaining in more detail your calculations and abbreviations? I'm not challenging you, just wanting a better understanding. That kind of analysis is so much more meaningful than just saying the 405 must give an extension of maximum range.

[Kegbelly]

He has subtracted the speed of sound, roughly 1125 fps. The sound will reach the deer before the arrow does. At 30 yds the sound will reach the deer in .08 seconds. The arrow will be there in .236 seconds. So reaction time is the difference between when the deer hears the shot and when the shot connects, .236 minus .08 =.156 seconds at an arrow speed of 380.
To add one more number, at 405 fps the reaction time would be .142 seconds at 30 yds. That's a fast deer

[nchunterkw]

Hi5
Kegbelly is right on and here is more insight to my thought process.

I did some digging on the web so see what was out there regarding deer reaction time. With new cameras, it is not hard to get a really good picture of what can happen, with some pretty accurate times. Still, every scenario is different and every deer is different. They do not all do the same thing - even in the "same conditions". So I started out by calculating the "Deer Reaction Time" for all of the rated speeds of the Excal Bows, plus some lower speeds. I define "Deer Reaction Time" as the time it takes the arrow to travel the distance, minus the time it takes the sound to travel the distance. Assuming the deer will react to the sound because it is not looking at you. If it is looking at you the Reaction Time will basically be the arrow flight time because the speed of light is very very fast compared to the arrow. As I looked at that data, and thought about the title of this post, I decided to pick 30 yards as a benchmark for the "comfortable" range of many hunters using Excal crossbows. I then calculated the distance an arrow would travel when shot from the 405, for the same reaction time as for the 30yard shot of the other bows. That gives the "apples to apples" distance comparison. My thought was that if you are comfortable at 30 with you current bow, then you could be comfortable at the new calculated distance if you are just looking at reaction time of a deer. I was surprised at how big a difference the 405 makes when compared to the 305 series of bows.

Kegbelly - check this out

http://bowsite.com/BOWSITE/features/art ... ngjumping/

Found this yesterday. I'm not sure everything is right with the time here, but he is saying this deer dropped 8 inches in an 1/8th of a second (0.125s) . But in any case this deer was vey quick.

This one seems better to me - but I think this deer can "see" too even though it's head is down.

http://www.fullpotentialoutdoors.com/ho ... mp-string/

[Boo]

At 23 yards and 300 ft\sec that deer was within a few inches of being missed completely. Amazing animals!
The reaction time will be different according to mood, what happened to the animal moments before, age, sex, health, time of day, what the animal was doing just before the shot etc.
Good work Keith! But we have to understand that the formula is not an absolute. In the end, I think these ranges would be more correctly called "possible maximum theoretic range in a vacuum".

[Hi5]

Thanks for sharing. That was interesting stuff.

We don't know the arrow speed of those two hunters (with certainty, anyway) so it makes solid conclusions dangerous. Also, we don't know how reliable the distance measurements/estimates are.

About all we can say is that deer can duck VERY quickly.

So, really what a bow hunter should do is first of all determine HIS current maximum ethical shooting distance. Then chronograph his current hunting equipment and calculate reaction time. Then compare that with the reaction time afforded with a 405 Fps arrow.

That should be the best available way of estimating the range extension created by using a faster bow. It's not precise, but it's about as precise as we can get.

It seems to me that is practical and realistic.

[Kegbelly]

I agree, it's theoretical at this point, but it's very close. In order to get hard numbers you'd have to factor in elevation, temperature, air density, relative humidity, winds, establish a drag coeeficient for your broadhead and arrow combination, etc etc. It could get downright scientifik But Keith's number's are close enough, you'd only be talking probably about a few hundredths of a second difference between those numbers and actual times and distances. I'll go so far as to say this, as arrow speeds increase, string jumping becomes less and less of a factor. So when Excal comes out with the first hypersonic bow I'm all over it.
Keith, thanks for putting that info together, definitely food for thought.

[vixenmaster]

Talkin about deer's reaction times from hearin sounds & seein the hunter & arrow bein shot. This yr was 1st time i ever videoed deer as i shot them. Made 2 video's, one of a young 8 pt shot at est. 26 yds. He didn't react that i can tell until impact of BH. Second one was a Doe at abit over 20 yd twas lookin at me when i shot her in the neck. She also didn't react to sound or the arrow. Everyone must make their own decision upon given the shot, too far deer movin too much whatever. I let the area dictate how far i can shoot a deer, not the deer. I require a clear openin of soccer ball size before i will shoot a deer or other game. I have no range finder but i knowed when an animal gets wid-in me killin range.

[Kegbelly]

I honestly hate to say this but I've never had one jump the string with a crossbow. Had a few do it with the much slower, arcing trajectory of the verticals I was using years ago, but IMO the speed and flatter trajectory of modern xbows somewhat changes the rules. It might happen the very next time I pull the trigger, the possibility is always there. And I've only hunted with it for 5 seasons, I figure sooner or later it'll probably happen.

[vixenmaster]

I honestly hate to say this but I've never had one jump the string with a crossbow. Had a few do it with the much slower, arcing trajectory of the verticals I was using years ago, but IMO the speed and flatter trajectory of modern xbows somewhat changes the rules. It might happen the very next time I pull the trigger, the possibility is always there. And I've only hunted with it for 5 seasons, I figure sooner or later it'll probably happen.

That is the very reason i use n hunt wid Excals fastest model he Vixen