With the possibility of a blackpowder season, a came across this one for sale. Does anyone know if this is a good deal??? I would be new to these type of guns!!
thomsom black pouder,54 caliber,come complete with hard case,bullet, primers. 1 llb of powder,brass clening kit, 400.00
Black Powder
Moderator: Excalibur Marketing Dude
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Mighty Mooser
- Posts: 309
- Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2003 9:30 pm
- Location: Lunenburg, On
Black Powder
When you whack them you better stack them!!!
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turkeywacker
If you think that they are only more expensive for "Prestige" I think you should read the following article!
I was going to buy a Traditions until I did some research, now I wouldn't
use one if it was given to me!!!
This isn't the only article I based my opinion( it is only an opinion) on, but it is the first one that I found.
Read for yourself and decide if a few extra hundred dollars is worth it or not
http://canadiangunnutz.com/viewtopic.php?t=17351
I was going to buy a Traditions until I did some research, now I wouldn't
use one if it was given to me!!!
This isn't the only article I based my opinion( it is only an opinion) on, but it is the first one that I found.
Read for yourself and decide if a few extra hundred dollars is worth it or not
http://canadiangunnutz.com/viewtopic.php?t=17351
I shot a 2-1/4" group with my T/C Omega this past weekend at 200 yards!
I added a bipod to it and wanted to see if it had any adverse affects on my shooting. Apparently not
Of course this was off a bench rest, and with a Leupold 2-7x scope.
BTW, I discovered if I use 100 grains pyrodex and a 300 grain Barnes bullet I get 1800+ fps consistantly. Sighted dead-on at 125 yards I'm 1-1/4" high at 100, 2-1/2" low at 150, and 10" low at 200. If I set the scope to 5x the bottom post is dead-on at 200. With today's laser rangefinders the 200 yard muzzleloader is a reality!
I added a bipod to it and wanted to see if it had any adverse affects on my shooting. Apparently not
Of course this was off a bench rest, and with a Leupold 2-7x scope.
BTW, I discovered if I use 100 grains pyrodex and a 300 grain Barnes bullet I get 1800+ fps consistantly. Sighted dead-on at 125 yards I'm 1-1/4" high at 100, 2-1/2" low at 150, and 10" low at 200. If I set the scope to 5x the bottom post is dead-on at 200. With today's laser rangefinders the 200 yard muzzleloader is a reality!
wabi
Turkeywacker, my Traditions Inline tracker takes 150 grains of Pyrodex in strides. It will cluster shot over shot at 75 yards with standard hunting loads of 100 - 110 grains. You will find over the years all gun makers have had their share of problems. This isn't isolated to one maker or another.
And for your info it's CVA that had problems with their barrels not Traditions. If I compare my barrel to a CVA barrel that had the problems, it is clearly way thicker than that of CVA. CVA had a massive recall for all their guns and it cost them a fortune. CVA was wondering if they shouldn't just close their doors, but their lawyers convinced them to do the right thing. I heard this from the gun counter fellow Le Baron Montreal that has been there for over 20 years. Le Baron used to carry CVA, but won't go near them now.
And for your info it's CVA that had problems with their barrels not Traditions. If I compare my barrel to a CVA barrel that had the problems, it is clearly way thicker than that of CVA. CVA had a massive recall for all their guns and it cost them a fortune. CVA was wondering if they shouldn't just close their doors, but their lawyers convinced them to do the right thing. I heard this from the gun counter fellow Le Baron Montreal that has been there for over 20 years. Le Baron used to carry CVA, but won't go near them now.
Pete
The great outdoors is where I want to be.
The great outdoors is where I want to be.
That's like saying that a cheap Barnett is as good as an Excalibur! If you think the only difference between muzzleloaders is the name......you are sadly mistaken!bstout wrote:The only reason to spend a lot of money on black powder equipment in my opinion would be for prestige. All makes and models are accurate and as long as you keep them clean they always go off and hit their mark.
You say your rifle will put 3 out of 5 in a 3" circle at 50 yards.......so, how big is the 5 shot group???
My Remington 50 cal MLS will put 3 shots into .75" at 100 yards! Last season, I killed a doe at a lasered 204 yards........I certainly wouldn't attempt that shot with a gun that won't keep all 5 in a 3" circle at 50 yards!
No sir, muzzleloaders are not all the same......
Tell that to competitive benchrest shooters! Quality costs money......no way around that! If you truely believe that "money plays no part in it", then why shoot an expensive Excalibur crossbow when, according to your theory, a cheap chinese crossbow from eBay will do the same thing?bstout wrote:Shoot what you like. Money plays no part in it.
True, but success can be, and often IS limited by cheap equipment!You can't purchase your way to success.
Also true, but that is not the fault of the "latest and the greatest" equipment! The equipment does not make the shooter..........Every year I see newbie's (and long timers alike) with the "latest and the greatest" in equipment. The second something new shows up on the scene they have to be the firsts ones to have it. I enjoy watching these guinea pigs.
True, but, with equal experience, I'll lay my money on the guy with the best equipment!It won't make up for their inabilities to hunt. It takes time to gain experience. Experience is not for sale. Those of us that were fortunate enough to have grown up and live in the country (not in town) and can practice going into the woods on a daily basis gain experience much faster than the guys downtown talking about it in the tavern.
Anybody that thinks a $50 muzzleloader will shoot with a $500 muzzleloader is simply fooling themselves!
Now, if you want to claim that a good shooter with cheap equipment can outshoot a really poor shooter with expensive equipment........I might buy that.........but, you put the good shooter behind the cheap equipment, then put him behind the quality equipment and what happens??
I don't own the "latest and the greatest" equipment, but I do have quality equipment........and, I have spent many hours developing and testing loads, loading methods and cleaning methods to wring the best accuracy possible out of my muzzleloader........if my muzzleloader wouldn't do better than 3 out of 5 in 3" at 50 yards.........it would quickly be replaced.
Just remember, not everyone who owns the best equipment is trying to "purchase their way to success".........some folks can actually use expensive equipment to it's fullest potential!
A muzzleloader is basically a barrel and an action...and a stock (the new nylon/plastic stocks are all basically the same). You cannot compare a crossbow or bow like you can a muzzleloader. There are far more variables involved to make a reliable and accurate bow.
On a muzzleloader, if your barrel is a good one and the trigger smooth, it'll shoot like any other gun out there. Certainly more expensive guns have better workmanship, the bluing deeper, the metal more polished, the stock more luxurious which merit the price you pay. That has nothing to do with accuracy and a gun's capability to take game. Go out and try a Traditions and then tell me they aren't as accurate.
One of the gun dealers I know went out and compared Remingtons, Thompsons, and Traditions at a 100 yard range. Accuracy was comparable between all of them. Some liked different bullets and slightly different loads, but all came in just fine.
200 yards is a very far shot for any muzzleloader. You have obviously worked up the correct load and ammo for your particular gun. I contain my shots to 100 yards. I find bullet drop can be severe past that, but I use heavier slugs.
On a muzzleloader, if your barrel is a good one and the trigger smooth, it'll shoot like any other gun out there. Certainly more expensive guns have better workmanship, the bluing deeper, the metal more polished, the stock more luxurious which merit the price you pay. That has nothing to do with accuracy and a gun's capability to take game. Go out and try a Traditions and then tell me they aren't as accurate.
One of the gun dealers I know went out and compared Remingtons, Thompsons, and Traditions at a 100 yard range. Accuracy was comparable between all of them. Some liked different bullets and slightly different loads, but all came in just fine.
200 yards is a very far shot for any muzzleloader. You have obviously worked up the correct load and ammo for your particular gun. I contain my shots to 100 yards. I find bullet drop can be severe past that, but I use heavier slugs.
Pete
The great outdoors is where I want to be.
The great outdoors is where I want to be.
Either you are playing dumb, or you really are........so, I'll humor you one more time and see if I can go slow enough and explain it so even you can understand..........You said: Shoot what you like. Money plays no part in it. You can't purchase your way to success."bstout wrote:I never thought of an Excalibur as being "An expensive crossbow". Excalibur's are very competitively priced in my opinion. I don't remember mentioning anything about ebay and chinese bows. You'll have to refresh my memory on that one and your other statements that I made.
The least expensive Excalibur bow at Archer's Nook, "Vixen - Standard Deerhide Brown - 150 lb - 14" power stroke - 285 fps - FREE SHIPPING within Canada or USA", sells for $308 US dollars.
You can buy this "150LB Metal CROSSBOW Rifle 150 lb w/bolts NEW" on eBay right now for a "buy it now" price of $80 including shipping. (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 66048&rd=1)
Compared to this eBay junk, even the cheapest Excalibur crossbow is EXPENSIVE!
Now, if "Money plays no part in it", why would you shoot a crossbow that is at least 3.85 times more expensive than the crossbow on eBay? ......so, answer my question......if money plays no part in it......why do you shoot an Excalibur?
First, I don't drink or visit bars, so I wouldn't know about the tavern talk that you seem so familiar with.......second, to make the blanket statement that " I think you have some valid points about target shooting but they don't apply to hunting." tells me you don't have a clue about target shooting or accuracy in general!I think you have some valid points about target shooting but they don't apply to hunting. If you want to hunt with a $500.00 muzzleloader be my guest, it's not necessary however. Expensive equipment will not make you a better hunter. Thats tavern talk.
Take your muzzleloader for instance........you said it will put 3 out of 5 shots into 3" at 50 yards........that's nice, but you haven't said where the other 2 shots went.......is the total 5 shot group 5" or 10" or 30"? Where and how big is the group at 100 yards? If you are willing to limit your shots to 50 yards or less, then a 5" or even 6" group would be adequate to kill a deer at 50 yards.......IF you can keep every shot in 5 or 6 inches.
However, some of us want to KNOW where our bullet is going when we squeeze the trigger......and we want to shoot farther than 50 yards.......for us, your rifle is useless! For us, an accurate rifle IS necessary! For us, a $79 rifle just don't cut it! So, for you and your accuracy demands, a cheap rifle might be fine, but not many good hunters are satisfied with poor accuracy........Some of us want to be able to kill a deer at 100, 150 or even 200 yards.........to do that consistently, it takes more than a cheap rifle!
If you are satisfied with your cheap, inaccurate rifle.......GREAT, some folks are.....that's why they sell cheap rifles.......but to infer that a $79 rifle that won't put 5 shots into 3" at 50 yards, is all anyone needs....and anything else is just for "prestige"........well, that is simply ridiculous!
Woodsman wrote:A muzzleloader is basically a barrel and an action...and a stock (the new nylon/plastic stocks are all basically the same). You cannot compare a crossbow or bow like you can a muzzleloader. There are far more variables involved to make a reliable and accurate bow.
Gee, a recurve crossbow is basically a set of limbs, a string, a trigger and a stock........what are all those other variables that make it so much more complicated???
Let's see, could it be the quality of the limbs, string, trigger and stock??? Same goes for the muzzleloader......it is the quality of the barrel, trigger and stock and how well the gun is put togther!
So, how much do you need to spend on a muzzleloader to get a good trigger and barrel.......$50, $79, $100......$500??? Along with cosmetics and prestige, more expensive guns typically have higher quality barrels.......the internal finish is smoother, the tolerances are more precise and they are often made with better steel and are proof tested to be sure they can handle repeated overloads.....they have better triggers which are built of tougher steel on the wear surfaces (not just surface hardened), with better springs and many are adjustable for weight, creep and overtravel.......all of which effect accuracy!On a muzzleloader, if your barrel is a good one and the trigger smooth, it'll shoot like any other gun out there. Certainly more expensive guns have better workmanship, the bluing deeper, the metal more polished, the stock more luxurious which merit the price you pay. That has nothing to do with accuracy and a gun's capability to take game. Go out and try a Traditions and then tell me they aren't as accurate.
Many of the cheap imported muzzleloaders are made with parts that work well for awhile, but don't last......the springs lose their tension, the metal is soft and wears quickly, the barrels aren't proofed for the loads that they recommend........face it, the only way they can make a cheaper gun is to cut quality or cut labor costs.....most have done both.....
When was the last time you heard of a mainspring breaking on a TC side hammer gun? When was the last time you heard of a thimble blowing out the side of a TC percussion rifle? When was the last time you heard of a soft hammer peening itself into uselessness on a TC? When was the last time you heard about a barrel rupture on an american made gun? I have heard about all of these problems with the cheap imported rifles and have seen a few myself.
Just an FYI.......I currently own 5 muzzleloading rifles........you can now buy a stainless Remington muzzleloading rifle like I hunt with for $300.......so don't think I'm defending the most expensive rifle available.......
I learned a long time ago........cheap is usually way more expensive in the long run!
Wow......you saw through me.......you are right, I'm just mad because my $400 (original price) rifle shoots 3/4" groups at 100 yards when I could have saved $321 by buying a $79 rifle like yours and not been able to hit the ground!bstout wrote:Sour grapes!
By the way.......I'm still waiting on an answer as to why you shoot an expensive excalibur when an $80 eBay bow would do just as well??? Remember, "Money plays no part in it"!
andbstout wrote:I can hit a three inch circle at 50 yds. three out of five times with open sights and I practice very little with my Traditions Panther.
Wow, this speaks volumes about the type of hunter you appear to be. If you shoot very little and your groups continue to be like this I would suggest getting out there and shooting more. Regardless of how much your weapon costs, you owe it to the game you hunt to be as good as you can possibly be. With a gun that shoots this poorly I can certainly understand why you do not shoot farther than 75 yards, heck, with a gun that only keeps 3 of 5 in a 3" target at 50 yards you cannot be sure of not wounding them at 50 yards let alone 75. A gun that shoots this poor should either go back to the manufacturer to find out what is wrong, or simply be thrown on the scrap heap, it's worthless the way it is, and whether it cost $79 or $790 makes no difference.I wouldn't shoot at game more than 75 yds. away with any of them.
And yes I do have several muzzleloaders, no they are not overly expensive. One is a Thompson Center Hawken caplock in 50 cal that is set up to shoot just round balls, I used this rifle for black powder competitions back in the 1980's, total cost $450. The other is a Thompson Center Thunderhawk inline 50 cal that I ordered from Cabela's for $225. (this one shoots 1 1/2" groups at 100yards with open sights, under 1" if I use a scope)
Please do us all a favor and find out why your particular gun shoots so bad, if it's you, get more practice, if it's the gun, get it fixed or get rid of it, it's a piece of junk. And do not think that I am knocking Traditions, I have several friends that I hunt with that use Traditions muzzleloaders and neither one of theirs shoots as bad as yours.
As always JMHO.
huntin1
"Never corner something meaner than you"
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Red Label
Red Label
I personally don't care what anybody else shoots......but to tell someone new to muzzleloading that a $79 muzzleloader is all you need and that anything more expensive is "just for prestige".....is terrible advice!
How many forum members would be protesting if bstout told a newbie to the board than an $80 eBay junk crossbow was all he needed and anything more expensive (read Excalibur) was just for prestige? I'm willing to bet that there would be a bunch.....and, rightly so!
I personally don't care what anybody else shoots......but to tell someone new to muzzleloading that a $79 muzzleloader is all you need and that anything more expensive is "just for prestige".....is terrible advice!
How many forum members would be protesting if bstout told a newbie to the board than an $80 eBay junk crossbow was all he needed and anything more expensive (read Excalibur) was just for prestige? I'm willing to bet that there would be a bunch.....and, rightly so!