Archery is Archery! What are people scared of? So what ,crossbows are very accurate and effective within their range. Maybe it might highlight the in-accuracies of other types of archery.......this doesn't makes sense to me.
Look at certain shotgun seasons, where they can use modern muzzle-loaders. From my past educations in hunting anything with a rifled barrel is called a "RIFLE"........
POPE AND YOUNG DECLARES WAR ON THE CROSSBOW
After reading about how alot of compound bow hunters feel about those of us who choose to hunt with xbows really feel, I consider myself very lucky to live where I do. Missouri's deer herd is well managed with plenty of room to chase them on our vast amounts of public land. I work in a large manufacturing plant with lots of bow hunters without any problems at all. Using a xbow is viewed for the most part as just another way of harvesting and controling our large deer population. How someone who's shooting a bow with every advantage that modern technolgy can provide, wearing space aged suits, and sitting 25 ft. up a tree in a lounge chair can have the nerve to look down on someone else's choice of bow is beyond me. An attack against one of us, is an attack against us all.
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brayhaven
This is an evolutionary process. A slow acceptance of something that is catching on. I saw it when compounds came out. The bowhunters scoffed at anyone who would use one of "those things". Then, everyone used them & they were fine. I think crossbows will have that general acceptance someday. Initially, it will be wildlife management & financial considerations that break the ice. The acceptance will come from resignation (of the inevitable) & realization that the sky is still up there after all 
Greg
Greg
archery debate
Education.....is what is needed here.
We must educate the public. We must show them the similarities and the differences between crossbows and recurved and compound bows. It must be clearly presented.
It is of great significance to note here, the resistance which is met in permitting the crossbow’s use for deer hunting as well as on a much wider scale. The opposing forces, not surprisingly, turn out to be archery purists. We have heard some refer to the crossbow as a crossgun.
Only by remaining objective can one hope to arrive to clear conclusions regarding the worthiness of the crossbow. I believe more information and research is required in order to better study it’s presence among useful weapons and to better educate hunters as well as the non-hunting public. .
Listed below are a few select comments I have heard and that need to be addressed:
-crossbows will introduce a new group of less-than-dedicated hunters into our bow season
-crossbows will reduce our opportunities (meaning reduced tags and/or season)
-crossbow hunters will handicap bow hunters using conventional equipment
-crossbows have a much longer range than modern compound bows
-crossbows might prove to be a good recruitment tool for bringing in youth & women into hunting
-crossbows may be good in retaining older hunters
-could the use of crossbows; their accessories; the increase hunting opportunities; the hunting recreational travel expenditures incurred; be beneficial in general & could it contribute to a more positive financial impact for the Provinces & States through licence fees & retail sales?
-crossbow use & safety can be taught during fundamental hunter safety & education courses
I believe that like any other shooting skill, using a crossbow safely and accurately will require a combination of old and well learned knowledge as well as new information specific to the weapon.
Presented next are facts which will be difficult to ignore:
-the crossbow launches and arrow (called a bolt) by the forward movement of the limbs and string just like a vertical bow
-the draw-weight on a crossbow must be heavier because the power stroke is so much shorter than that of compound bows
-the draw-weight on a crossbow must be heavier because the bolt (arrow) is also much shorter than that of the compound bows
-in reference to the crossgun analogy, it could be safe to say that while crossbows are aimed and shot like a rifle, they lack the noise, odor, flash, recoil, range, and kinetic energy of hunting rifles
-the range, ballistics, and accuracy potential of crossbows are similar to modern compound bows
-most compound bow archers use sights, and latches with triggers called mechanical releases
The main difference is that recurve and compound bows must be held at full draw by the archer’s muscles while he aims, while the crossbows are mechanically held in a cocked position. This is a distinct advantage for the crossbow archer. It could also play against the crossbow archer on the other hand, should he initially miss his shot, for a greater amount of physical movement and possibly noise would most certainly result if an attempt was made to recock the crossbow with the knowledge that the quarry is still in range. Not such with a miss from a compound bow, as posture and noise from that archer would not be as exaggerated.
The Pope and Young letter doesn't not provide much information. It states it's view with no examples, no statistics, no solid research data. It's an opinion. It's a stand.
Let's present the case in a sound, clear and comparative manner. By doing so we should be in a position to expose the real reasons "archery purists" are against permitting crossbow use in "their" season.
We must educate the public. We must show them the similarities and the differences between crossbows and recurved and compound bows. It must be clearly presented.
It is of great significance to note here, the resistance which is met in permitting the crossbow’s use for deer hunting as well as on a much wider scale. The opposing forces, not surprisingly, turn out to be archery purists. We have heard some refer to the crossbow as a crossgun.
Only by remaining objective can one hope to arrive to clear conclusions regarding the worthiness of the crossbow. I believe more information and research is required in order to better study it’s presence among useful weapons and to better educate hunters as well as the non-hunting public. .
Listed below are a few select comments I have heard and that need to be addressed:
-crossbows will introduce a new group of less-than-dedicated hunters into our bow season
-crossbows will reduce our opportunities (meaning reduced tags and/or season)
-crossbow hunters will handicap bow hunters using conventional equipment
-crossbows have a much longer range than modern compound bows
-crossbows might prove to be a good recruitment tool for bringing in youth & women into hunting
-crossbows may be good in retaining older hunters
-could the use of crossbows; their accessories; the increase hunting opportunities; the hunting recreational travel expenditures incurred; be beneficial in general & could it contribute to a more positive financial impact for the Provinces & States through licence fees & retail sales?
-crossbow use & safety can be taught during fundamental hunter safety & education courses
I believe that like any other shooting skill, using a crossbow safely and accurately will require a combination of old and well learned knowledge as well as new information specific to the weapon.
Presented next are facts which will be difficult to ignore:
-the crossbow launches and arrow (called a bolt) by the forward movement of the limbs and string just like a vertical bow
-the draw-weight on a crossbow must be heavier because the power stroke is so much shorter than that of compound bows
-the draw-weight on a crossbow must be heavier because the bolt (arrow) is also much shorter than that of the compound bows
-in reference to the crossgun analogy, it could be safe to say that while crossbows are aimed and shot like a rifle, they lack the noise, odor, flash, recoil, range, and kinetic energy of hunting rifles
-the range, ballistics, and accuracy potential of crossbows are similar to modern compound bows
-most compound bow archers use sights, and latches with triggers called mechanical releases
The main difference is that recurve and compound bows must be held at full draw by the archer’s muscles while he aims, while the crossbows are mechanically held in a cocked position. This is a distinct advantage for the crossbow archer. It could also play against the crossbow archer on the other hand, should he initially miss his shot, for a greater amount of physical movement and possibly noise would most certainly result if an attempt was made to recock the crossbow with the knowledge that the quarry is still in range. Not such with a miss from a compound bow, as posture and noise from that archer would not be as exaggerated.
The Pope and Young letter doesn't not provide much information. It states it's view with no examples, no statistics, no solid research data. It's an opinion. It's a stand.
Let's present the case in a sound, clear and comparative manner. By doing so we should be in a position to expose the real reasons "archery purists" are against permitting crossbow use in "their" season.
the problem with the fact based argument is much like the problem of telling Sarah Brady that facts prove that gun control laws don't stop crime. She doesn't care because her claims about crime are merely the public facade she adopts in order to convince the weakmnded and to divert attention from her real goal-to disarm LAW ABIDING americans.
the anti xbow conspiracy hires people like marlow and Mullaney (who gets lots of money from anti xbow manufacturers like Martin) to create factoid based papers claiming how lethal crossbows are and they use these phony facts to serve as a pretext or facade for what really motivates them
Its greed pure and simple. These clowns just don't want anyone else in their woods and all the facts in the world aren't going to change what is not a position based on ignorance but rather a position based upon personality flaws and selfishness.
Facts of course are important, because there are plenty of people who actually have part in the decision making process who aren't greedy or in many cases, don't bowhunt and have no reason to exclude people based upon lies and other disinformation
I don't try to convince the anti xbow types-I ridicule them because doing so usually exposes their underlying mendacity to others. After their phony facts are trashed, it takes little prodding to get these schmucks to admit that they really are motivated by GREED and that is patently obvious in their retorts.
I look forward to the day-and it will come-when we are deciding if bowhunting is best served by not having liars and the greedy in OUR season
the anti xbow conspiracy hires people like marlow and Mullaney (who gets lots of money from anti xbow manufacturers like Martin) to create factoid based papers claiming how lethal crossbows are and they use these phony facts to serve as a pretext or facade for what really motivates them
Its greed pure and simple. These clowns just don't want anyone else in their woods and all the facts in the world aren't going to change what is not a position based on ignorance but rather a position based upon personality flaws and selfishness.
Facts of course are important, because there are plenty of people who actually have part in the decision making process who aren't greedy or in many cases, don't bowhunt and have no reason to exclude people based upon lies and other disinformation
I don't try to convince the anti xbow types-I ridicule them because doing so usually exposes their underlying mendacity to others. After their phony facts are trashed, it takes little prodding to get these schmucks to admit that they really are motivated by GREED and that is patently obvious in their retorts.
I look forward to the day-and it will come-when we are deciding if bowhunting is best served by not having liars and the greedy in OUR season
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Woody Williams
- Posts: 6440
- Joined: Wed Oct 09, 2002 5:07 pm
On ArcheryTalk Jim and myslef have butted heads with quite a few who's basic argument coems down to "we don't wnat any more hunters".
One such individual who goes by Big Country argued to who laid the rail. He is a very intelligent man but just did not have the facts on his side. After a lot of "discussion" he went looking for ALL the facts and came back with a different conclusion that he had before.
Every now and then you win one of the antis over. Especialliy if they are free thinkers.
In these on-line debates it is the lurkers, that don't give input, are the oens that decide what is what.
One such individual who goes by Big Country argued to who laid the rail. He is a very intelligent man but just did not have the facts on his side. After a lot of "discussion" he went looking for ALL the facts and came back with a different conclusion that he had before.
Every now and then you win one of the antis over. Especialliy if they are free thinkers.
In these on-line debates it is the lurkers, that don't give input, are the oens that decide what is what.
Woody Williams
We have met the enemy and he is us - Pogo Possum
Hunting in Indiana at [size=84][color=Red][b][url=http://huntingindiana.proboards52.com]HUNT-INDIANA[/url][/b][/color][/size]
We have met the enemy and he is us - Pogo Possum
Hunting in Indiana at [size=84][color=Red][b][url=http://huntingindiana.proboards52.com]HUNT-INDIANA[/url][/b][/color][/size]
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bobby jost
- Posts: 53
- Joined: Sat May 07, 2005 8:15 pm
Wow,
This is tragic, grown citizens modeling themselves as hunting enthusiasts and purists bashing a X-bow for the only reason that you pull a trigger instead of drawing a string... silly!!
The art of hunting encompasses so much more than a kill, and who really cares what legal method has fallen the beast. It is a shame how reasonably intelligent sportsmen are so shallow in depth when measuring success and joy... give the X-bow hunters their own organization, 'Pope & Young' is legendary and leave it that way, how about a name like 'Cardinal & Old' association that invites both Bow and X-bow hunters.
Hmmmm maybe we're on to something.
This is tragic, grown citizens modeling themselves as hunting enthusiasts and purists bashing a X-bow for the only reason that you pull a trigger instead of drawing a string... silly!!
The art of hunting encompasses so much more than a kill, and who really cares what legal method has fallen the beast. It is a shame how reasonably intelligent sportsmen are so shallow in depth when measuring success and joy... give the X-bow hunters their own organization, 'Pope & Young' is legendary and leave it that way, how about a name like 'Cardinal & Old' association that invites both Bow and X-bow hunters.
Hmmmm maybe we're on to something.
I believe we already have an organization that not only promotes and supports crossbow hunting, but has recently established a "record book" for archery trophies.......and by archery, they mean any animal legally killed with an arrow- no stipulations on the type of bow used at all. Longbow, recurve, crossbow, and compound (regardless of let-off), because they all have one thing in common! They only launch the arrow, and it's the arrow that does the killing!!!!! The hunter is free to pick the type bow that best suits his/her ability and needs, without being pressured to be a part of some elitist group that feels their way is the only way!!!!!... give the X-bow hunters their own organization, 'Pope & Young' is legendary and leave it that way, how about a name like 'Cardinal & Old' association that invites both Bow and X-bow hunters.
This organization is known as the American Crossbow Federation, and all of us need to be members whether we hunt with the crossbow only, or other types bows, too. I, personally, shoot all the types of bows mentioned, but because of my physical condition (bad shoulder) I do all my big-game hunting with the crossbow simply because it's legal here in Ohio, and it gives me the best odds of making good clean kills...... which I feel should be every hunter's #1 priority!!!!! - not choosing which bow is "cool", but choosing the bow that gives him/her the best odds of making a perfect shot every time!
You can find information on what the ACF is, and how to become a member at their magazine website - http://www.horizontalbowhunter.com/
I'm a member, and darn proud to be a part of the organization that not only supports our rights to hunt with a crossbow, but supports our rights to hunt with any legal weapon we choose!!!!!!!
wabi
Jim C.,I am trying to think of some articles to write for them
That's another great thing about them, they aren't a "mail in those greenbacks and become another number in our computer" type organization. They listen to members, and even publish members stories. Woody has already become a famous author (just poking fun Woody, but they were good stories), and there may even be another forum member with a story in the next issue
Now I'll shut up and let the suspense build........ wonder who this new author is????
wabi
I don't post here very often..but support xbows in archery season because they are bows..
I shoot compounds...
The Bowsite published this article:
http://www.bowsite.com/BOWSITE/features ... Letter.pdf
in response to this position laid out by the Archery Trade Association ATA:
http://www.bowsite.com/BOWSITE/features ... tement.pdf
Of course, there's a thread on the BOWSITE argueing against xbows (sigh)..
I almost never post on that site anymore..and really don't even go there..
I shoot compounds...
The Bowsite published this article:
http://www.bowsite.com/BOWSITE/features ... Letter.pdf
in response to this position laid out by the Archery Trade Association ATA:
http://www.bowsite.com/BOWSITE/features ... tement.pdf
Of course, there's a thread on the BOWSITE argueing against xbows (sigh)..
I almost never post on that site anymore..and really don't even go there..
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brayhaven
""The Bowsite published this article:
http://www.bowsite.com/BOWSITE/features ... Letter.pdf
""
If was a member of any of those signatory organizations, I would withdraw from them & demand a refund of any membership fees.
).
Greg
http://www.bowsite.com/BOWSITE/features ... Letter.pdf
""
If was a member of any of those signatory organizations, I would withdraw from them & demand a refund of any membership fees.
).Greg
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Woody Williams
- Posts: 6440
- Joined: Wed Oct 09, 2002 5:07 pm
You do bring up a point..brayhaven wrote:""The Bowsite published this article:
http://www.bowsite.com/BOWSITE/features ... Letter.pdf
""
If was a member of any of those signatory organizations, I would withdraw from them & demand a refund of any membership fees.
Greg
The ATA has a grant program and a LOT of these "clubs" recieved grants from them.
Not sure how forthcoming the ATA will be from now on.
Also they are si upposed to boycott any archery companmies that make crossbows or crossbow accesssories..
That's cutting off their noses..sending customers to the real crossbow companies like Excalibur..
Woody Williams
We have met the enemy and he is us - Pogo Possum
Hunting in Indiana at [size=84][color=Red][b][url=http://huntingindiana.proboards52.com]HUNT-INDIANA[/url][/b][/color][/size]
We have met the enemy and he is us - Pogo Possum
Hunting in Indiana at [size=84][color=Red][b][url=http://huntingindiana.proboards52.com]HUNT-INDIANA[/url][/b][/color][/size]
My email to Compton Traditional Bowhunters after seeing their name on the list:
I received a sample edition of your newsletter/magazine from "Three Rivers Archery Supply" with an order I had placed for traditional archery supplies and was prepaired to apply for membership as I have used traditional equipment for over 45 years.
I, however, was recently provided with information that your organization has endorsed a letter denouncing the use of crossbows for archery hunting. As some of us traditional archers age we also loose the physical ability to use heavy (hunting weight) traditional bows. A shoulder condition ended my traditional bowhunting, and I was able to switch to a crossbow here in my home state of Ohio for archery hunting. Let me tell you, the crossbow is a very good option for anyone without the ability to use a traditional bow, and is a lot more "traditional" than any compound bow! Compound bows have been accepted as "bowhunting" equipment everywhere I know of, so why would you take such a negative stance against crossbows? My crossbow has "traditional" recurve limbs, I still have to use my own muscle energy to cock it, and it still shoots an ARROW with no more range or effectiveness than any other bow!
I understand you are a "traditional" archery club. I was shooting bows long before there was a need for the word "traditional" to even explain what you used to launch an arrow. If your club is going to make a public statement against the inclusion of non-traditional equipment to launch arrows for "archery" hunting, you should include a statement against compound bows! If you aren't willing to voice an opinion against the use of compound bows, then why would you endorse a statement against the use of a much more "traditional" form of archery? After all, crossbows have been around for centuries!
I'm sorry to say it, but I'll not be sending my membership fees and application unless I hear of you retracting your endorsment of the statement against the inclusion of crossbows in "archery" hunting seasons, and I will work even harder to promote their inclusion. I would think with the recent news of the increasing strength of anti-hunting organizations you would be joining forces with any other pro-hunting groups and organizations to support ALL forms of legal hunting, not trying to divide and weaken the pro-hunting groups!
Mike Cooper
I received a sample edition of your newsletter/magazine from "Three Rivers Archery Supply" with an order I had placed for traditional archery supplies and was prepaired to apply for membership as I have used traditional equipment for over 45 years.
I, however, was recently provided with information that your organization has endorsed a letter denouncing the use of crossbows for archery hunting. As some of us traditional archers age we also loose the physical ability to use heavy (hunting weight) traditional bows. A shoulder condition ended my traditional bowhunting, and I was able to switch to a crossbow here in my home state of Ohio for archery hunting. Let me tell you, the crossbow is a very good option for anyone without the ability to use a traditional bow, and is a lot more "traditional" than any compound bow! Compound bows have been accepted as "bowhunting" equipment everywhere I know of, so why would you take such a negative stance against crossbows? My crossbow has "traditional" recurve limbs, I still have to use my own muscle energy to cock it, and it still shoots an ARROW with no more range or effectiveness than any other bow!
I understand you are a "traditional" archery club. I was shooting bows long before there was a need for the word "traditional" to even explain what you used to launch an arrow. If your club is going to make a public statement against the inclusion of non-traditional equipment to launch arrows for "archery" hunting, you should include a statement against compound bows! If you aren't willing to voice an opinion against the use of compound bows, then why would you endorse a statement against the use of a much more "traditional" form of archery? After all, crossbows have been around for centuries!
I'm sorry to say it, but I'll not be sending my membership fees and application unless I hear of you retracting your endorsment of the statement against the inclusion of crossbows in "archery" hunting seasons, and I will work even harder to promote their inclusion. I would think with the recent news of the increasing strength of anti-hunting organizations you would be joining forces with any other pro-hunting groups and organizations to support ALL forms of legal hunting, not trying to divide and weaken the pro-hunting groups!
Mike Cooper
wabi