Broadheads

[groundpounder]

First off I would like to state that I usually avoid these argumentive posts. Guess I'm feeling a little different tonight.

Same argument holds true for riding a bicycle instead of driving a car. I didn't see very many bikes out there today.

We are not even talking apples to apples with this one and this was only thrown in to poke fun. If we were talking apples to apples I would have gone the other way and say compared the broadhead to say a stone arrowhead, but then we are not all Tred Barta either.

I like hearing that BIG POP that you can only get with a LARGE cut mechanical.

If you are hearing a BIG POP, you are either hearing metal to metal slapping together from the mechanical head or you are hearing the stopping power of a deers hide to the larger surface area of your mechanical head. Neither one being better in my opinion. Seems to me the less noise you hear the better. Less blunt trama but more speed, less friction, and more chance for a pass through.

without the knowledge of actually using one.

You are correct with this statement too. However I have read too many times of mechanicals failing (and on this forum) for me to try one. This is partly why alot of us read the forum to learn from others so we do not have to go through the same redundant trials.
This all being said I hope Sumner isn't taking this as a shot but as input. I have great respect for Sumner and all of his input on this forum. Who says we can't agree to disagree every now and then.

[sumner4991]

grounderpounder . . .it's not an arguement, just a discussion amongst friends. Which is the way I feel about some of the crap I post.

You are right about the bike remark . . .just a poke.

The loud pop . . .you know the sound your arrow makes as it hits the deer? Well, it's that unmistakable sound only much louder. Probably when the metal hits the bone.

You are right about using the forum to learn. Well, I'm relaying my experience here. From what I've experienced along with CF and some others, you might want to revisit the mechanical.

Fixed blades have failed me before. However, I'm not here bashing fixed blades. There are some VERY good ones out there. I'm just saying there are some very good mechanicals and there are definite advantages to using them.


Scott

[fuzzy]

...

[sumner4991]

fuzzy . . .it's not that big of a deal. Just simple logic really. With a fixed blade broadhead, you have more exposed surface area. There is more surface to catch the wind. In absolutely windless conditions, then the mechanical broadhead simply goes a tad bit faster than a similar fixed blade broadhead. However, in windy conditions, the fixed blade is blown to some degree by the wind that hits this exposed surface of the broadhead. The distance of the shot, the size of the broadhead and the type of wind will determine just how much the accuracy is altered.

Honestly, in most cases, the difference in accuracy is small. However, the impact of using a 2" cut vs a 1" cut is huge. groundpounder is right about getting a pass through, the 2" cut makes it more difficult to achieve. My objective is have the broadhead make a entry wound and a exit wound. I'm going from the Hammerheads(100gr) to the Stricknines(125gr) in order to raise the KE enough to ensure the two wounds(entry/exit). However, when using a smaller broadhead, I not only go through the deer, but the arrow has travelled as much as 40 yards through and past my deer. That's wasted energy and makes my arrow hard to find. I hunt from the ground with the Exomax.

That's why when someone asks about broadheads, I ask what kind of hunting they are doing. And if switching broadheads then why are they switching. Their hunting style, what weapon they are using, and their own experience will determine what broadhead is best for them. Typically, folks just start suggesting "use what I use" . . .may not be a good fit.

Hunting with the Exomax is much different than hunting with the Vixen.

[groundpounder]

I think I still have a little bit argument left on this topic.

[/quote]
With a fixed blade broadhead, you have more exposed surface area. There is more surface to catch the wind. In absolutely windless conditions, then the mechanical broadhead simply goes a tad bit faster than a similar fixed blade broadhead.

Looking at the rage while the blades are not deploid you still have some of the flat backs of the blades exposed causing wind resistance. And with the Wasp Jackhammer you have the backs of the blades all facing forward in a jumble to create wind resistance. I would compare this to a wad cutter (flat nose) type bullet. Maybe your over all diameter has been reduced with the blades being brought in closer but the wind resistance has increased with the flat backs of the blades facing forward. I believe a fixed blade broadhead being much more streamlined would be as fast if not faster than the mechanical even with the added over all diameter in flight. I know the differences we are talking about will be minimal but different. If someone ones to settle this one with a chrony and the different heads on the same bolt I would be intersted in seeing.
But I would agree with the statement that the mechanical would not be affected as much by cross wind. There would definitely be more side surface area for the wind to push against to blow the bolt around.

[sumner4991]

Todd . . .OK, I'll just let you take me hunting and buy me a beer.

In Horizontal Bowhunter, page 35, article "Crossbow Arrow Velocity And Energy", Rusty Rawsen supports my rambling with data from the chrony.

The 100gr muzzy vs the 100 gr Spitfire in the same carbon shaft . . .the Spitfire out ran the Muzzy by a whopping .5 FPS and the weight of the Spitfire arrow was .6 gr heavier.

There is a lot more support for crosswinds. However, those things are just hype . . .not a great deal of difference.

However, like I stated above, the real difference in the bleeding. In my field testing, the deer hit with the fixed blades up to 1.25 inches wide ran at least 150 further than the deer hit with the 2" wide broadheads. But, I've only killed two and the average is 10 yards. More field testing to come . . .

[sumner4991]

I just read my last paragraph . . .boy, that makes sense. I've shot several with the WASP Boss and Slick Tricks, I only had one to fall in it's tracks. The rest ran on average of 150 yards or so. Three got away after tracking over 200 yards. I've killed two with the 2" Hammerheads, one dropped in it's tracks from a lung shot. The other went 20 yards from a gut shot.

Scott

[wabi]

Last fall I shot one with a mechanical that didn't open. Wasp JakHammer, and the blades were still tightly banded closed when I found the arrow that had passed through the deer's heart. Yes - it heart! It went less than 50 yards, and I didn't even realize the broadhead had failed to open until I recovered the arrow the next day!
My point - it isn't the size or brand of broadhead - it's where you put it! That mechanical with the blades banded closed still cut a 3/4" hole through the deer's heart. Not something I'd care to try again, but about any broadhead would have had the same end result. I'm now shooting my G-5 Montecs again, but I'm going to be extra careful with shot placement. The mechanicals DO have an advantage of a larger cut - if they work! I must admit I hit a buck too far back a few years ago with a JakHammer and cut his liver in half. He went 60 yards and I watched him go down. Not sure a fixed blade would have anchored him nearly that quickly (probably not), but the truth is I made a bad shot and got lucky.
The problem with mechanicals from crossbows is opening when launched. If you double band to insure against them opening you run the chance of them not opening at all. The few I tried that used friction to hold the blades closed just weren't 100% dependable in my mind. One brand (Grim Reaper as I recall) had one blade that would always be open when it went through the paper I had in front of the target. It was probably opening on the paper, but if one blade opens before the others.........where's it going to go inside the deer?????????

[crazyfarmer]

Lemme sum things up....

bascially anything sharp in a well placed area will bring a deer down.. fixed blade or etc;)

[sumner4991]

My point - it isn't the size or brand of broadhead - it's where you put it!

What a great example of why to use a wide blade broadhead. wabi . . .I agree 100%. However, how confident are you at putting a 3/4" broadhead through the deer's heart? How many deer have you taken and how many of those were with a heart shot? Odds aren't even that great for the average hunter. Now, how confident are you at being able to hit the deer somewhere between the liver and the heart? You like them odds a little better, right?

My point- the wide blade gives you a lot of room for error. I did the same thing you did, I messed up and hit one too far back and it went down with the 2" cut. Not only did it go down, it went down within 20 yards. How many times do you hear about the gut shot that went 20 yards? I swear, I'm not making this up. 20 yards. Sure, I hear about deer being shot in the heart and they drop, no big deal, eh? Think about it.

The problem with mechanicals is we need to learn how to use them. We have mastered tuning those fixed blades and some of them are great. Same thing goes for the mechanicals, we need to learn how to use them. Some of them are great. We have tested and retested fixed blades for 30 years and some of them still stink. However, most of us haven't given mechanicals the time of day because someone else had a bad experience once.

Lesson learned . . .do not double band with O-rings. Doubleband with rubberbands.

Lesson learned . . .some of the spring loaded mechanicals will open upon launch. Put on a rubberband.

I'll keep dropping deer in their tracks. Eventually, someone might take notice.

Scott

[widowman]

I just read my last paragraph . . .boy, that makes sense. I've shot several with the WASP Boss and Slick Tricks, I only had one to fall in it's tracks. The rest ran on average of 150 yards or so. Three got away after tracking over 200 yards. I've killed two with the 2" Hammerheads, one dropped in it's tracks from a lung shot. The other went 20 yards from a gut shot.

Scott

Trust me, if you have long trails and nonrecoverable game, it ain't the broadheads.


Any broadhead on the market will kill game quickly if the shooter can put it where it belongs.

I guess my point is.....shot selection and execution is way more important than broadhead design.

[sumner4991]

Widowman . . .well, I hate to debate something I don't know(the ones that got away). However, one of those shots was from less than 20 yards. It looked like a great double lung shot on a nice doe. Not like I get doe fever. However, I recovered two that went between 130-140 yards and they were double lung.

Bill T. made what looked like a great shot on that monster buck in the video and it went 300 yards(didn't he say 300 yards?).

It's not uncommon for a deer to travel a long distance with a well placed broadhead. Is it? It's probably more uncommon for deer to drop in their tracks.

Depends on your definition of quickly too. A deer can quickly go 300 yards.

Also . . .I'm not talking about broadhead design . . .I'm talking about 25% more cutting surface.

[wabi]

I will admit the 1 3/4" cut JakHammers always put the deer down quickly. Even with the one that didn't open my kill rate is 100% with them, and that's at least 8 or 10 deer I've killed with them.
No arguing that a bigger cut means better odds of a quick kill, but I just can't find a mechanical I have 100% confidence in.
As I said, it will probably be Montecs this year, but I WILL be very selective in shot placement.

What mechanical would you recommend? I am not against trying another mechanical, and if I can find one that stays closed until it hits the deer - then opens as it should - I'll use it!

[sumner4991]

wabi . . .honestly I'm trying to achieve what you have. A broadhead with a 100% success rate. From my testing, I believe your problem was using two O-rings on that Jackhammer. I stopped using O-rings after your experience. An O-ring can get old and dry out which would make it harder for them to release the blades. I tested some Jackhammers(the ones you sent me)using rubberbands(the ones dentists use on braces) and they worked every time. If I were you, I'd go back to the Jackhammers and use two rubberbands. Let me know if you need rubberbands and I'll send you a pack. However, about every kid you see with braces on their teeth has more than they will ever use.

I can't really suggest a mechanical. I just haven't tested enough to be comfortable with that. I can tell what I like to shoot at deer out of my Exomax. The Rocket Hammerheads fly better than anything else I've ever shot and the deer drop in a big hurry. There are two issues with them. With the two deer I've shot, neither had a complete pass through(very close, the skin was pierced at the exit) and blades broke. Everything else, I love about the Hammerheads. Adding a little weight will cure the pass through issue. However, I don't think the Hammerhead blades can hold up to the impact/KE of the Exomax. I have some Stricknines on order which are Trophy Ridge's signature broadhead. Looks just like the Hammerhead, but, 25gr heavier. I'll let you know how the blades hold up on them.

I haven't even started picking out broadheads for my Vixen. Right now I have some 4 blade, 100gr Slick Tricks waiting for some action. The Vixen can not generate enough KE to use as wide of a broadhead as the Exomax. I may actually try the Jackhammers in the Vixen and see how they perform.

I'm not saying that mechanicals are the best things out there. I'm saying, we really haven't done our part in testing them. When we have a problem with our favorite fixed blade, we assume it was something we did and try and fix it. However, when we have a problem with a mechanical, we stop using it, figuring it was just a bad mechanical.

Anyway, suggesting broadheads is more than just saying "use what I use". Unless you are hunting with the same weapon and hunting the same animal, under the same conditions.

[widowman]

.........There are two issues with them. With the two deer I've shot, neither had a complete pass through(very close, the skin was pierced at the exit) and blades broke. Everything else, I love about the Hammerheads. Adding a little weight will cure the pass through issue. However, I don't think the Hammerhead blades can hold up to the impact/KE of the Exomax. I have some Stricknines on order which are Trophy Ridge's signature broadhead. Looks just like the Hammerhead, but, 25gr heavier. I'll let you know how the blades hold up on them.

If you can't get a passthru with an exomax, there is a problem.

and the blades break?

hell I get complete pass thrus with my recurve, which only produces around 32 ft/lbs of kinetic energy.

I think the exomax get nearly 3 times that amount of energy, so if they don't pass thru, either the shot was poor or the heads suck.