Best arrow . . .

[vixenmaster]

Same weight ? yer kidding me They are with-in 25 gr of each other, example one arrow weighs 342 gr total & another weighs 365 gr total weight. No matter thet will hit with-in 1/2" out to 35 yds so its dead tick toter time

[sumner4991]

Same weight ? yer kidding me They are with-in 25 gr of each other, example one arrow weighs 342 gr total & another weighs 365 gr total weight. No matter thet will hit with-in 1/2" out to 35 yds so its dead tick toter time

I agree . . .but, when it comes to beating the guys that have all arrows of the same weight . . .1/2 an inch here and there can make the difference, right?

I did not see a difference in accuracy by adding brass inserts to my 20" arrows. Made them heavier and the launch was smoother . . .but, they were no more accurate.

Has anyone tried making an arrow of the same weight and different FOC's? Maybe someone can test that. I'd like to see the difference in trajectory at 30 yards and 40 yards. See what the groups look like.

[vixenmaster]

It was the windy conditions that beat me more than just poor shooting accuray fer me at awshucks place. I shot 3 of awshucks arrows all 433 gr area & they were all touching & tore a vane off on one his i think. My alun. inserts was a 2 1/2-3" group at 30 yds. Good enuff fer a deer or hog but not shooting competion. To me the accuracy came from the FOC in the wind, if'en no wind then maybe i would have better group. Which with field pts really shows up in windy conditions using fixed BH's. Now as to which is better alum or brass inserts fer FOC & fast fps CB's is subject to the person doing the shooting at the time. In my small amount of shooting i prefer heavier even though they're slower arrows with lots of FOC. The plus fer me is the smashing penetration out of lower weight model Excal CB's. My opinion is vixen's/ibex/phoenix all do well using 400-450 gr arrows. Vortex/exocet/emax/equinox 425-500gr. Each person has their arrow weight area they favor after shooting these Bows fer 10 or more yrs like i have at 15 yrs with Excals.

[sumner4991]

Which with field pts really shows up in windy conditions using fixed BH's.

Not sure what you mean here. Wind typically has more effects on broadheads than field points, right? Were you shooting field points in the competition?

My opinion is vixen's/ibex/phoenix all do well using 400-450 gr arrows. Vortex/exocet/emax/equinox 425-500gr. Each person has their arrow weight area they favor after shooting these Bows fer 10 or more yrs like i have at 15 yrs with Excals.

How much time have you invested shooting the high end speed bows? I thought you were strickly a Vixen man. Anyway, I can't concur on the weights. I just don't see the added benefit in flight. I have seen a added benefit in penetration. Every hunter should have enough weight to create a complete pass through on the animal they are hunting. After that, it's really a matter of how fast you want to go.

FOC . . .benefits are small, too small. If you are having accuracy issues, then adding FOC while maintaining the same weight will not fix the problem. Slowing an imperfect arrow down via adding weight can improve it's performance . . .but it will still be a bad arrow.

So, you don't think you could have flinched under the pressure?

[vixenmaster]

OK i don't knowed how to separate yer reply, gee challenged by so many things. The field pts we knowed has less wind deflection than the BH's. Was my meaning, but the fly-weight arrows i was shooting couldn't handle the 20-30 mph winds from the side with their alum. front inserts & light weight. Now the heavier brass insert arrows all hit touching each other & were 95 gr more in total weight. In still conditions with field pts you may find no diff in accuracy. I use to shoot awshucks emax alot when i was down there afore he sold it & i have had 2 e'cet 200's, about 4 yrs worth of time & several thousand arrows shot. Yup Vixen's are my favorite & never found anything i have access to hunt they won't kill out to 40 yds. Now with a 225 model it has enuff zip to go thru deer with the light weight arrows even using up to a med. sized fixed BH, say a snuffer 125. Smaller poundage must rely on abit more weight fer pass throughs specially if using mech. or larger fixed BH's. I ran into 2 animals this past season where those light weight arrows were marginally pass-throughs. They barely got the BH a few inches out the offside in which the animals leg while running broke the arrow into. I have about half dz of those arrows left to use up this coming deer season. Then my other arrows are heavier. Tired of experimenting with these light n fast arrows with a small pounage CB. When i use up all these i will be very glad to go back to using 400-620 gr arrows again.

[sumner4991]

OK i don't knowed how to separate yer reply, gee challenged by so many things. The field pts we knowed has less wind deflection than the BH's. Was my meaning, but the fly-weight arrows i was shooting couldn't handle the 20-30 mph winds from the side with their alum. front inserts & light weight. Now the heavier brass insert arrows all hit touching each other & were 95 gr more in total weight. In still conditions with field pts you may find no diff in accuracy. I use to shoot awshucks emax alot when i was down there afore he sold it & i have had 2 e'cet 200's, about 4 yrs worth of time & several thousand arrows shot. Yup Vixen's are my favorite & never found anything i have access to hunt they won't kill out to 40 yds. Now with a 225 model it has enuff zip to go thru deer with the light weight arrows even using up to a med. sized fixed BH, say a snuffer 125. Smaller poundage must rely on abit more weight fer pass throughs specially if using mech. or larger fixed BH's. I ran into 2 animals this past season where those light weight arrows were marginally pass-throughs. They barely got the BH a few inches out the offside in which the animals leg while running broke the arrow into. I have about half dz of those arrows left to use up this coming deer season. Then my other arrows are heavier. Tired of experimenting with these light n fast arrows with a small pounage CB. When i use up all these i will be very glad to go back to using 400-620 gr arrows again.

OK . . .looks like we reached the same conclusion. You need enough weight to penetrate the animal.

As for the competition . . .the inconsistant winds could have caused the miss . . .could have been a ton of things. Could have very well been the FOC. Get 'em next time.

[sumner4991]

Just for fun, I googled FOC and took a look. Here are excerpts followed by the web link. I suppose I am in the camp of Hunters Friend . . .unless it's "really out of whack", then it's not an issue. Anyway . . .here's a quick copy and paste job for ya.


Easton recommends 10-15% FOC for hunting set ups

http://www.eastonarchery.com/company/faq




So what should you be looking for?


It is generally agreed that the optimal F.O.C.% balance for an arrow is somewhere between 7% and 15%. In the example on the above, the 30" long arrow has balance point that is 3" forward of the arrow's actual center (15"). So it's F.O.C. is 3/30 or 10% - a reasonable F.O.C. balance.

http://www.stickemarchery.com/stickemca ... enter.aspx

Recommended values for FOC (using the AMO method) vary depending on the application, target arrows (field points) should generally be in the 8-11% range and broadhead tipped arrows in the 10-15% range. FITA and longer distance shooters will often go for a 12%+ FOC, even though they are using field points, because of the long distances involved. Some traditional hunters have used FOCs of over 30% because with the right setup it can enhance penetration on animals.

http://archeryreport.com/2010/09/arrow- ... calculate/



This is another hotly debated issue among archery enthusiasts. In fact, some of the self-proclaimed chat board gurus seem intent on beating the FOC issue to death. So before we get into this, we need a quick reality checkpoint. If your FOC is really really out of whack, it's an issue. But don't spend too much time splitting hairs about whether your FOC should be 9% or 10%. If your FOC is reasonable (7-15%), your arrows will function as they should. And don't assume that the mathematical average (11%) of the recommended 7-15% range is somehow the best score. It doesn't work that way. The ballistic physics for FOC include some rather elastic variables that make finding an "mathematically optimal" FOC very difficult to declare and prove. To make matters worse, we even see a variation in how FOC itself is calculated (some include the tip of the arrow in the length measurement, some stick with the AMO arrow length measurement). So don't pull out your scientific calculator on the FOC issue. It's not necessary. Just choose a reasonable value and move on.

http://www.huntersfriend.com/carbon_arr ... pter_4.htm



What is F.O.C.? Front of Center is a measurement of where the center of mass of the arrow is located relative to the physical center of the arrow. It is expressed as a percentage of the overall length of the arrow and it is always closer to the tip or arrowhead. There are as many ideas of proper F.O.C. for any given type of shooting, as there are authors on the subject. Generally, they all pretty much fall between 7% and 15%.

When you have the F.O.C. balance where you want it and it is within the range of acceptable limits, then its time to make the rest of your arrows. Needless to say, this setup is for a particular arrow shaft with particular fletching and nock, and a particular arrowhead and weight combination. There is no such thing as a universal F.O.C. setup.

http://www.scientificarchery.com/foc.html

[EZKILL]

i was shooting the firebolt now i shoot the gold tip Laser IIs as far as flight no big difference they shoot good but for breaking arrows had 5 firebolt break so far no gold tip

[sumner4991]

i was shooting the firebolt now i shoot the gold tip Laser IIs as far as flight no big difference they shoot good but for breaking arrows had 5 firebolt break so far no gold tip

Wow. I hadn't heard of anyone having breaking issues with the Firebolts. Was that in target situations? My GT IIs cracked from getting hit by another arrow during the string testing I was doing. I was putting a lot of arrows in the target at a time. However, I still test the same way and don't get the occasional cracked arrow after switching to the Easton Powerbolts. Could be I've gotten better at missing the other arrows, but, I'm betting the thicker Powerbolts can just take a little more punishment.

I ended up with a couple of broken Powerbolts after the deer I hit laid down on them . . .but, heck, that's expected if I don't get a pass through.

[EZKILL]

i was shooting the firebolt now i shoot the gold tip Laser IIs as far as flight no big difference they shoot good but for breaking arrows had 5 firebolt break so far no gold tip

Wow. I hadn't heard of anyone having breaking issues with the Firebolts. Was that in target situations? My GT IIs cracked from getting hit by another arrow during the string testing I was doing. I was putting a lot of arrows in the target at a time. However, I still test the same way and don't get the occasional cracked arrow after switching to the Easton Powerbolts. Could be I've gotten better at missing the other arrows, but, I'm betting the thicker Powerbolts can just take a little more punishment.

I ended up with a couple of broken Powerbolts after the deer I hit laid down on them . . .but, heck, that's expected if I don't get a pass through.

well i shot 3 deer with Firebolts 3 broken arrows then i cracked one from hitting a arrow then the other Firebolts broke in half in my hand when i pull it out of my target still lol at that one i use the block crossbow target but i love the way Firebolts shot just had some bad luck with them would i use them again yes i like the way they fly. i just wish i new what was the best arrows lol

[sumner4991]

EZKILL . . .if you are a pure speed freak, then the GT IIs are the way to go. However, they are thinner, so they may not wear as well. If you like a heavy FOC, then the Maxima Hunters are cool. If you want a heavier arrow that will last a little longer and are a good value, then Powerbolts/Thunderbolts are a good choice. You must have been flexing the guns when you broke off that Firebolt.

There are a few advantages in some of the other shafts too, but, nothing that really jumps out at me. I always thought the Crossbolts looked good, but, never tried them because of the price. And some of these only come as a complete arrow, not just raw shafts.

I was hoping someone would post something new on the market in this thread.

[Boo]

Here's my take on FOC. Agreed that it is highly over rated. I no longer check my FOC. I assemble my arrows and shoot them. If they do not fly really well with fixed broadheads then I look for the cause of poor flight and correct it. So far so good but I know that if there is a problem that I cannot fix I can rely on higher FOC to get better flight. So if I have a slight tiller issue for example that I don't want to correct I'll raise my FOC. That all been said, I try to use as much helical as possible and have never ended up having to use a high FOC. Bottom line for me is that using high FOC is a way to cover up a symptom that lays uncorrected.

[masboy]

Iv,e shot many combinations using powerbolts,gt11,aluminum for acurracy the best groups shot out too 50yds. Came from weights of 410-475 gr. All with 110 gr. Brass insert up front, gt11 flat nock in rear,3 degree helix blazers.foc 15-20 percent. Best groups shot with 475 gr. Arrows with 18 percent foc with field point and fixed broadheads in wind or no wind. I don,t worry about foc I just checked what it was after finding my most accurate arrows and it came out too 18 percent . I don,t care about a little more drop.it's all about Acurracy in all hunting conditions too me.

[strum]

I remember when I got my first "modern" compound...it was a high country..I used 30' xx75 arrows..125 g t heads and i shot every day from my porch ..had a range set up with 20 30 and 40 yrd targets ..made me a hanger for my bow and a bucket fer my arrows ..i would get up in the morn drink my first cup of coffe after i shot a while..I was realy shooting good to ..killed my first bow deer with that setup..
didnt know about FOC or how fast i was shooting ..what till meant or any other terms i was just shooting,,
then i messed up ..i started learning i got an overdraw..better arrows superslams..started cranking the poundage up to get all i could,,played with rests and sights..i started sucking at shooting ..but i talkin good bow terms..then i got a better bow ..a hoyt....then a mathew..then i traded all differntmakes and models.. did all the above,,then got carbons then got me some carbon express(thats when they first came out)..i was all over the FOC thing..
my shooting suffered..then i said hey there must be better fletching..so i found FOBs..loved em ..but my shooting sucked..
finaly i had a light go off in my head and i thought about that old High Country and i said ..all i did was shoot for fun ..not drive myself crazy with this and that..so I started shooting..working on my form ..thinking about where i was weak and practicing till i fixed the prob..
I know i said a lot ..but my point is,,what i was doing was getting faster and more accurate but less and less forgiving ..thats why my shooting sucked..yall are realy getting the wheels going in my head,,and i am glad i remembered all that past stuff..What i am using now
is shooting better than i could ever ask for so .im sticking with it..not realy Im addicted to tinkering..disregard all i said

[vixenmaster]

FOC = found off center or flying over cover. Never have done a percentage figure on that stuff. I try things just cause i am me, like shooting bare arrow only insert & pt or BH. My findings i can kill deer at 30 yds cause its going to hit in a 3-4" circle. Thats not sumpin i tell ppl to try or do but i have done it to try it out. Using mech BH, i haven't tried it with a snuffer but i may get a round toit someday. Fast powerful model like emax or equinox have plenty of power & reasonable speed. I just dislike how i feel cocking them now, i need a crankaroo fer them. My Disc's grind together in back i can feel them & can hear them & they hurt & i get stoved up fer several days after cocking shooting one of them 15 or 20 times in practice. Someday when i get a crankaroo i just may buy an orphaned equinox & bring it home, i reckon it could sit around & collect dust like my rifle does