Question: 20 yard vs 50 yard Opportunities

the elf · Post by **the elf** » Tue Dec 26, 2006 6:16 pm

Personally--------Methinks a troller by the name of Sumner-------has hooked a lot of people on this site-------------

Highlander · Post by **Highlander** » Tue Dec 26, 2006 6:34 pm

Excuse my ignorance, but what's a troller?

PRB · Post by **PRB** » Tue Dec 26, 2006 6:46 pm

Actually knobby I have tried it by putting a video camera on my target and shooting from 20 and 30 yards. I then replayed it on the tv and thought just for the heck of it I would see if I could drop down out of the way fast enough (pretending) from the moment I heard the crossbow go off. At 20 yards I couldnt. At 30 yards it seems to be very close. But I was expecting and anticipating the noise. If I had been looking at the tv screen and dropped when I seen the limbs fly forward then I could get down in time just like a deer would. Yes I know our reaction times are slower than a deers but it really is amazing what people come up with as far as different points of views.
And no they do not drop any faster than gravity will allow them to. It a natural free dropping reaction. Like I said I beat this string jump issue into the ground so hard it was terrible. I tried to cover it from evry imaginable angle you could possibly think of. Well low and behold I wont give his name but I was lucky enough to have talked to a registered engineer (via phone) who use to study reaction times of humans such as swimmers, runners, ect.. He also done some studies on the reaction times of animals as well. I can ask his permission if you like to talk to him. He is a forum member here but does not post very often. He was very good at explaining only the facts to me and was impressed that a dumb country boy like me could comprehend his math and formulas.
My point being was then and is the same now that speed most certainly makes a difference only in those situations where the deer reacts from the sound of the crossbow only. When will that happen ? I dont know. Yes a deer can still string jump...how ? I dont know. I do know that experience is the big factor here and yes this subject is a very touchy for some people. I thought I would throw my 2 cents in there. Even after all the work and study I went through maybe it doesnt make any sense to some of you but I shoot the Vixen

PRB · Post by **PRB** » Tue Dec 26, 2006 6:53 pm

I told myself I would never get involved in one of these types of posts again. I blame most of this terrible attitude I have on GaryL. I believe its his ways that have rubbed off on me. Jump in here Gary. Its a never ending circle.

wabi · Post by **wabi** » Tue Dec 26, 2006 6:53 pm

All I can say for certain about a deer "jumping the string" is that I have watched a buck at about 30 yards drop enough for an arrow from the Vixen I was shooting to pass just over his back. This happened my first year of hunting with an Excalibur, and I was using heavy arrows and only getting about 260fps velocity. I had a max-zone scope on the bow and the crosshair was zeroed at 20 yards. The other marks did not work out to 10 yard increments, but were on at about 27-34-40 yards as I remember. The buck was 30 or 31 yards away, and I held the 34 yard mark for a top of the heart shot, which put the 27 yard mark high in the lungs. The arrow should have been about half way between those marks at that distance. This was my first Excalibur and I had been shooting every day for a couple months. I had learned to watch the arrow through the scope until it hit the target (follow through), and I was able to hit a pop can size target every shot out to 40 yards. I had already shot a deer or two (not certain what the limit was that season or how many i killed, but I know I already had shot one doe from that same stand). I was well practiced, I had already killed a deer and was not suffering from "buck fever" on the shot! I put the scope on the buck (small rack so I wasn't too excited) and I squeezed the trigger. The bow fired and I watched the buck drop as the arrow was in flight. The arrow passed just over his back - a clean miss!
I did not flinch - miss - or "blow" the shot. The shot was perfect! The arrow went exaclty where it was aimed, but the buck was not there when it arrived! I probably did aim too high, I should have held lower, but if I had it would have been a very high hit, possibly spine or higher. I'm glad i missed completely, but I'll gurantee you that buck DID "jump the string"! It may have been the noise, or he may have seen the limbs move when i shot, but he did move probably close to 8" before the arrow got to him!
I have also watched a deer at 31 or 32 yards that never even flinched until the arrow was there, which goes to add meaning to the "predictably unpredictable" theory.
Just my personal experiences, but I have been hunting for about half a century now and I have gained most of my skills by learning from the mistakes along the way. As far as I'm concerned a deer that is past 30 yards is not a sure thing even with my 300fps Phoenix. My last 3 deer kills(last season and this one) have all been less than 10 yards, and as long as I can get that close why take chances on long shots? I may not get to shoot at every deer that comes along, but the ones I do shoot at are in serious trouble.

the elf · Post by **the elf** » Tue Dec 26, 2006 7:07 pm

Highlander----in my opinion a troller is a person who starts a topic trying to get as many people involved as possible--and by controversial statements and theories ---- gets them excited and going round in circles---solving nothing ------- but feeding their perverse humour,for their own enjoyment and agenda.

GaryL · Post by **GaryL** » Tue Dec 26, 2006 7:54 pm

I am too busy reading up on long shot's to get involved in this thread

Thanks much PRB

knobby · Post by **knobby** » Tue Dec 26, 2006 8:14 pm

And no they do not drop any faster than gravity will allow them to.

well we will have to just agree to disagree on that one then

inanimate objects(ie. arrows) are at the mercy of gravity....but deer certainly arent

a ducking motion can be performed in zero gravity

but the ones I do shoot at are in serious trouble. Wink

amen to that

sumner4991 · Post by **sumner4991** » Tue Dec 26, 2006 10:28 pm

Only way to settle the issue is for me to take some 50 yard shots and see how many deer jump the string. That's the only true test. The majority of my bow shots were 20 yards on average, so maybe I just haven't collected enough data. If anybody else wants to do some testing, then practice up during the off season. Looks like I may get the chance to hunt some this weekend.

I'll let you know how it goes.

Tom . . .Short shots are definitely a better choice. I agree that deer have the ability and time to move on a bolt from 60-65 yards away. I'm also saying that in the majority of longer shots, they don't move.

rutman · Post by **rutman** » Wed Dec 27, 2006 8:23 am

I'm sorry for talking Canadian to you guys. If you believe you should shoot at whatever you can see with a bow, thats your perog. I personally have more respect for a deer than that.

Highlander · Post by **Highlander** » Wed Dec 27, 2006 8:30 am

Amen to that Rutman. I have one more good reason why you should only stick to the high percentage shots. I live and hunt on two hundred acres. I have neighbours on either side. The last thing I want is for them to see a wounded deer with my crossbow bolt in it. It just doesn't help our sport or me when I ask for permission to hunt other properties. Word travels fast around here and one irresponsible person with a crossbow can ruin it for all of us.

Tom · Post by **Tom** » Wed Dec 27, 2006 8:50 am

sumner4991 wrote:Only way to settle the issue is for me to take some 50 yard shots and see how many deer jump the string. That's the only true test. .........

Sumner instead of testing on live animals that you might wound, why do you not do the test I mentioned above. It would prove that string jumping can occure.

Again ........... have you tried that test of standing out at 60 - 65 yards, near the target (behind a safe wall for protection) to see the time difference. Another test you can do, same setup as above, put a string on a target paper and when you hear the bow shoot, jerk the string (keep string tight to the paper) to see if the arrow hits the bullseye. WE all know that a deer's reaction time would be alot greater then a humans (I would classify a human's allert reaction time to still be slower then a relaxed deer, but would call it a wash in this test since all animals and humans reaction are different).

Testing on paper would be more eithical. I would get a few members together to test, but I honestly believe that if we did this test and it was to prove you that string jumping can occure, you would only dispute it saying that the test was fixed somehow. I will leave the test to you or for others to do so they will understand the truth here.

You have proven in your replies that you do not want to know the truth, only to mislead people on string jumping.

DO THE TEST ON PAPER, PROVE IT THAT WAY!!!!!!!!

sumner4991 · Post by **sumner4991** » Wed Dec 27, 2006 9:10 am

Tom . . .I already agree with you. Deer do have the time and ability to move. I simply do not believe they will move. Deer get wounded on short shots . . .not because of string jumping(we have proved that deer can't jump the string on a short shot) but due to human/mechanical error. Yet, everyone still takes short shots. What I'm saying is that a hunter can eliminate most of the human/mechanical error and that is what should concern the average hunter. Not string jumping. I work hard on eliminating the errors I can control. When that is done, I am very confident and accurate. Confidence is 99% of shooting in every sport. I have the confidence to shoot a 50 yard shot, if conditions are near perfect. If that shot presents itself, then I will take it. However, I seriously doubt I will have to rely on a 50 yard "long shot" because I am a better hunter than that.

However, I do not believe anyone can set a hunter's shooting range other than the hunter. Calling someone unethical without knowing their experience or skill level . . .well, that's just wrong.

Tom · Post by **Tom** » Wed Dec 27, 2006 9:53 am

Sumner that is the POINT. You have no control over the deer and if they move or not. So when you take shots WAY OUT past the point of where they have a good amount of time to be able to move is uneithical. Ethics is not what is good for one person, but it is what is set by a group of people.

Doing shots like your saying is acceptable is only asking for a wounded deer.

You can be the best shot in the world, but still get a wounded deer because the animal moved after the shot was released.

GaryL · Post by **GaryL** » Wed Dec 27, 2006 10:32 am

You two better call it a day on this, it is like Xbow vs Vbow.

What one group calls ethical, another group will call it unethical .... No winners on this one

Each individual has to make the judgement call on wither it is a ethical shot in his/her opinion ....

That is inless the laws are changed to state no shot at a deer can be taken over 30 yards sorta like the poundage min., and max., allowed over here (40 for vbow and 90 min. and 200 max for xbow) of course it would be something to see it enforced