Gun Registry

[taz3]

I don't want to start a pissing match

Me either, this is simply my frustration with the whole fiasco and the way citizens like myself, were being taken advantage of. I, in no way care to go toe to toe with any one, for the simple reason it is too in depth to discuss via forum chat, and I believe many folks like myself feel this is way over due. My opinion is, we have too many privileges and not enough rights.

[Helmut]

I was a hand gun safety instructor here in Ontario, I own many long guns to this day. One of my hobbies was collecting gun accident(not one can be considered an accident) clippings specifically involving the use of hand guns. I can tell you for sure that stupid people do stupid things. You cannot legislate stupid therfore stupid will happen.
I believe we should be allowed to own rifles and hand guns. But I do not under any circumstances believe that we in Canada should have the RIGHT to own such tools and have no boundries set on their use. It is a previliage and should remain such. If you get right down to the brass tacks of it the US also treats it as a privilge they just package in a different box with a few more perks.

Please, please tell me you no longer have any influence over gun ownership.
You collect clips of gun accidents and expect to have an open view? Kinda like collecting clips about car accidents and expecting to get in a car without being biased. If you chose the path of collecting and focusing on the worst parts of a hobby, you will only see that, the worst parts. Man, that is a crappy place you have yourself in.
If you decide to pursue your "rely on the government" perspective to keep us all safe, you should move from Paris to Toronto and take up drivers education. Sad to hear that someone with your perspective on gun control was actually in a position to influence people.
I am 30 seconds up the road from you, I know almost every firearm instructor for miles away, who are you? Why do you no longer teach?
"Stupid" is going to happen, no matter what path in life we choose, from collecting guns to seashells.
Privilege?? Really? I am a citizen, a man, and I think I should have the RIGHT to pursue my own direction without having my balls tied up by the self richeous government or anyone else who thinks their life is about standing in line waiting for their next instruction from a "better" being.

Wow Pyd you would have been the last person I would expect that kind of slam from. You seemed like a very level head type of guy to me
Anyway,I feel compelled to reply
I personaly chose not to instruct any longer for personal reasons and have not for some time. As far as me collecting clippings and that somehow puts me in a crappy place goes>> I thank you for telling me how to feel.
As far as telling me that i can only see the worst in our sport by collecting those clipping>> again I thank you for telling me how I must think
Now that you are telling me how to think and how to feel i will use your own words "waiting for their next instruction from a "better" being"


Now let me try to defend my position. The clipping were used to educate the novice gun owners and to demonstrate that not every fool derserves to have gun ownership. They in no way influenced my opinion one way or the other on gun ownership. Why the devil would I be instructing if i was biased somehow?? If your opinion is right I should have been outside the club door picketing against it.

"Sad to hear that someone with your perspective on gun control was actually in a position to influence people"

No need for personal attacks here. My perspective on guns is one of enjoyment but first and foremost safety. The safety of myself and my fellow gun lovers comes in way ahead of your so called rights and my so called rights. That my friend is why it is a PRIVILEGE to own firearms. They are dangerous tools so the last thing i want and im sure most people want is dangerous or uneducated people owning them.
That type of thinking is EXACTLY what i would want in an instructor. Go ask the many you claim to know. I am sure they will say the same type of thing.
If we use your perspective as you have written it in your post there would be no need for instruction and confirmation of competancy because it would be your RIGHT to have the tool. If you do mandate the eduction and testing in a RIGHT to own firearms society then it automatically becomes a privilge because you are attaching conditions to ownership. Is that what you really want? You can't have it both ways.

"I am 30 seconds up the road from you, I know almost every firearm instructor for miles away, who are you?"
Yes i know you are and you do know me. In fact we have hunted side by side with actual guns. PM me if wish futher elaboration.

"Stupid" is going to happen, no matter what path in life we choose, from collecting guns to seashells"
That is correct for sure. That is exactly why we do need SOME control. To help minimize that. I do not worry about reckless people hurting themselves but i do care immensely if they hurt others because of thier recklessness or lack of restraint. Brother there must be controls in life like it or not. That is what makes us civilized people.

"Privilege?? Really? I am a citizen, a man, and I think I should have the RIGHT to pursue my own direction without having my balls tied up by the self richeous government or anyone else who thinks their life is about standing in line waiting for their next instruction from a "better" being.[/quote]"

WOW that quote i'm not sure how to respond to. All I can say is that if that were true we would all be in trouble. Not from you personally but, if we apply that logic to the rest of the population it would be complete chaos for sure. Lets face it you made a very broad statement there.

Please reread my original post. I thought I was pretty clear that I do not like our current situation one bit . I did not state anywhere that we should not own firearms only that we do need some degree of control.
If you feel the need to discuss further shoot me a pm maybe we could discuss over some clays as I recall we could both desperatley use the practise. GEESE 100 PYD and Helmut ZERO. I am always up for a good old political discussion

"you should move from Paris to Toronto and take up drivers education" Are freeking kidding me that would be propably one of the most unsafe things any person could undertake

[Helmut]

Vote not likely until Monday or Tuesday, while the PM is still in China currently, selling our oil.

He has to sell it somewhere. It would seem our friends to the south dont want it right now

It's quite a bit more complicated than that unfortunately - and i don't blame them for not taking it the way it was proposed.

Back to the C-19. It's really too bad that some idiot MP had to make the comment, comparing the support of the C-19 for long-guns to Hitler's Nazi-policies. It's already been hard and long enough of a battle that this whole deal doesn't need any more stupidity pilled onto it. Lets just get it done and done properly!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... h7IUALTCAY

Supprised it wasn't brought up sooner.

I suspect the oil thing has way more to do with vote in an election year than actual environmental impact. Had it not been an election year the pipeline would be half way there by now.

LOL That stupid statement probably didnt even get noticed by most of the general public cause that is what we have been conditioned to expect from our MPs. Can't see the forrest because of the trees situation. I hope Prime minister Harper slaps him hard for that one. I suspect he will.

[Helmut]

I'll say this Helmut - even on a Nyquil high you've string together a few paragraph with which I fully agree with you. Well said.

Thanks Ben

[wheelie]

With all due respect:

I certainly never wanted to wade into this debate but....

I don't believe owning guns is a privilege. Been shooting guns since I was 10 yrs old. Have owned a boat since I was 16 years old and after 40 years of owning a boat it was my privilege to have to get a licence now to keep using it?

priv·i·lege
   [priv-uh-lij, priv-lij] Show IPA noun, verb, -leged, -leg·ing. noun
1. a right, immunity, or benefit enjoyed only by a person beyond the advantages of most: the privileges of the very rich.

Plain and simple it is all about money or votes.

Anyone can buy a gun and at a couple hundred dollars that hardly makes it a privilge. Half the people I know have guns that were never registered. Harper figured things out good. Instead of trying to get minority groups to vote for him why not get the biggest group in the land to vote for him which is gun owners. I think he is one of the worst dictators this country has ever seen. But I did vote for him mostly over the gun issue. Now wanting to reduce gun control farther after long gun registry is gone it is obvious to me he plans on another term in office. He knows exaclly what he is doing. Another gun bill will take two or three years to get it through and guess where that brings us to? Thats right, election time again.

This is my opinion and mine alone. Others may differ in there opinion as we all have one.

[Helmut]

   [priv-uh-lij, priv-lij] Show IPA noun, verb, -leged, -leg·ing. noun
1. a right, immunity, or benefit enjoyed only by a person beyond the advantages of most: the privileges of the very rich.

Wheelie thanks for the dictionary definition. Maybe that will help explain why I call it a privilege

When I use the word privilege it is by the dictionary technical definiton only.
If you mandate training and proof of competancy you are giving an individual that RIGHT or certain IMMUNITY that is an advantage beyond the average person therefore a privilege by definition.

Our govenment warts and all still give most of us the right to own firearms we just have to jump through a few hoops to get there. SO perhaps using the words RIGHTS and PRIVILEGE is not the best thing to do.My mistake. The word STANDARDS may be a better choice.
Now that said when our STANDARDS are impimented or enforced based on rhetoric, false statistics, lies and the desire to collect unfair taxes then I am completely in agreement with everyone who thinks we are being shafted.

If STANDARDS are put in place to protect the public or the individule from proven probable or likely hazards then I am in with that.

This is no different than 90% of what we have to do each day. From driving your car to walking down the street, the RIGHT to do so is there you just have to meet a minimum standards to do it safely.

The whole issue of RIGHTS is being confused with the previous govenments desire to rip us off finacially. That my friends is never going to change. Remember power corrupts absolutely. We get to vote to minimize that rip off. As WHeelie stated he mostly voted Conservative to get rid of that particular tax grab.

[Pydpiper]

Helmut, I apologize for my "knee jerk" reaction to your post, it was not only out of line but it also lacked the respect you deserve for what you have contributed to this sport. I take this stuff to heart and should have spent a few moments digesting what you said opposed to respond so quickly and inaccuratly.

[Helmut]

Helmut, I apologize for my "knee jerk" reaction to your post, it was not only out of line but it also lacked the respect you deserve for what you have contributed to this sport. I take this stuff to heart and should have spent a few moments digesting what you said opposed to respond so quickly and inaccuratly.

Thank You

[Pydpiper]

I have never associated the word "privelege" to anything to do with money. The word has several meanings, and here is another from the same dictionary.

priv·i·lege
"any of the rights common to all citizens under a modern constitutional government: We enjoy the privileges of a free people."

That aside, the context that we use the terms privilege and rights can be a fine line, especially when it comes to firearms and ownership in this country.

In Canada it is our privilege to apply to become a firearm owner, and that is perfectly acceptable, the rotten apples have to be sorted out and we rely on our government to do that.
However, once those hoops have been jumped through and the detailed screening is completed a PAL is issued.
This is where it gets frustrating for me.
As a holder of a PAL or RPAL I have obviously satisfied the legal requirements to be in possession of a firearm and can be trusted to use it safely, properly and legally. So why do people have to ask permission to bring it out of their house? Or to sell it, or buy another one?
Do I think everyone, regardless of their background should be able to posses a firearm? Absolutely not. Do I think that if a person satisfies the legal requirements to own a firearm they should be able to use it with their own discrepancy? Yup.
I went through the same process to drive a car, it was a privilege to apply to be on the roads, but once that privilege was satisfied by those in power it is my right to operate it at my own discretion, provided I abide by the laws. There would be a lot less sheep in this world if people had to ask permission from their supreme leaders to drive their car every time they needed to go get milk or a Starbucks coffee. Or worse yet, a mandatory prison term for trying.

[wheelie]

Or to sell it, or buy another one?

I whole heartly argee with all of last statement, but I can see another side of buy and sell. Yes. we may do things proper. I don't own any handguns or even want one with the rules in place.... but lets say someone wants to sell a handgun for $250 and someone wants one and says "I will give you $1500 for the handgun but I have no licence." How many people are going to think there is no record of the handgun and just sell it and not care. You have to admit someone out in this big old country would think that way to make an old mighty dollar. Now you just put a handgun unchecked out on the street. Yes it could happen with long guns but that drug dealer is not going to meet someone at the local gas station and stick a rifle in his pant leg.

I do support a little gun control.

[Pydpiper]

Or to sell it, or buy another one?

I whole heartly argee with all of last statement, but I can see another side of buy and sell. Yes. we may do things proper. I don't own any handguns or even want one with the rules in place.... but lets say someone wants to sell a handgun for $250 and someone wants one and says "I will give you $1500 for the handgun but I have no licence." How many people are going to think there is no record of the handgun and just sell it and not care. You have to admit someone out in this big old country would think that way to make an old mighty dollar. Now you just put a handgun unchecked out on the street. Yes it could happen with long guns but that drug dealer is not going to meet someone at the local gas station and stick a rifle in his pant leg.

I do support a little gun control.

There inlies the issue with strict gun control, not gun control it's self, but the heavy handed control we face here.
If you rewrite that paragraph and replace the word "handgun" with another word, like, car, helicopter, medication, labor certification.. You will quickly see that it really isn't about guns at all, but about the person who is breaking the law. I refuse to fit in that box, there is no amount of money, nor any product that is going to make me put my personal ethics aside for financial profit.
I know many handgun owners, none of which would sell themselves out for money, not because of the gun it's self, but because of who they are.
Yet, the rest of us who do not break the law are forced to live in the confines of those who do.
Seeing how we can not hunt with handguns I am not totally opposed to the fact they do have to be registered, it alleviates some of the temptation that you mention from those who are willing to sell themselves out, and we all know those people do exist. But, there is a pretty big difference between having an item registered (common sense)and having to ask permission to use it (dictatorship).
I am all for mandatory firearm safety, provided it is offered in an unbiased fashion by an unbiased entity. I really have no problem with a registration system either, but when that system is designed to make criminals out of a honest person I kinda take it personal.
I am not going to sell my guns illegally for profit, why should I have to be treated as though I would?
Gun control and common sense just don't seem to go hand in hand, and it should.
See, a person that has a gun and sells it illegaly is not a firearm owner, they are criminals. That is not what the majority of us are about, hence the initial PAL/RPAL screening process.

[DirtyGun]

The handgun registry is about as useful as the long gun registry, in reality. It was set in place in 1934 as a measure to track handguns in case of enemy subversion. In fact, all guns, during the second world war, were registered, for this purpose. Since that time, restricted firearms remained registered.

Has the handgun registry done anything to prevent crime with handguns in 78 years? Many articles regarding crimes committed with handguns would prove otherwise. 78 years is an awful long social science experiment that has been proven to not work.

We have an excellent licencing system in Canada. I have absolutely nothing against firearms owners being required to be screened and attend training courses in order to obtain a licence. I also don't mind the CFO occassionally checking in on licenced owners who may have been through an incident that has changed their mental state, or the reporting system we have in place that family members or friends can use to launch such an investigation. However, as a pistol shooter myself, the red tape one has to jump through in order to obtain a pistol, transport that pistol to their home and then maintain an ATT to transport said pistol to the range is ridiculous. When you look at all the restrictions the ATT gives you, in theory, you can't even stop for gas on your way to the range. Point A to Point B with no variations...or you could end up in jail, if caught. Meanwhile, Mr. Gangbanger wanders around with a pistol tucked into their wasteband.

[TPM]

In fact, all guns, during the second world war, were registered, for this purpose. Since that time, restricted firearms remained registered.

I still have a registration certificate for a gun from back then. I also still have the gun to go with it. It belonged to my father and he said he had to take it down to the police station back in 1942 (?) and register it. I'll see if I can get pic of it and post it. Interesting bit of history.

[DirtyGun]

Final vote set for Wednesday evening. Count on it passing. Then it's just a matter of tradition in The Senate. To borrow and paraphrase a Liberal MP when C-391 was defeated...NOW the debate is over.

[Spence]

Just for curiosity, when you carry your rifle which way does it naturally want to point?


My rifle naturally wants to point left. Go figure.