ML hunters here?

Grizzly Adam · Post by **Grizzly Adam** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 5:39 pm

Hey, Muzzleloading Fans ...

With all due respect and goodwill to JH and anyone else with similar reservations, and without trying to be funny, I'd like to remind readers that smokeless powder was the original black powder replacement, and is much older than the new ascorbic acid or gluconic acid salt based propellants that have eclipsed the black-powder based Pyrodex in sales lately.

The first cartridges in which smokeless powder appeared were originally black powder cartridges, and original loadings in no way exceeded maximum pressures specified for the black powder loads. Indeed, many currently available cartridges with long histories are dramatically "underloaded" in order to allow the possibility of their being fired in an old blackpowder cartridge gun (the venerable .45-70 is a good example).

Semantics and personal preference aside, smokeless was originally a black powder "substitute", and it still is ... and it is the best one, by far. All the alternative propellants pale in comparison to it's consistency, power, and cleanliness, in every way. The various recently marketed black powder substitutes are the new kid on the shooting block. Smokeless is more than a century old.

The Savage 10 ML II is not the threat to muzzleloading seasons that many believe it to be. Specified loadings offer only minimal gains over so-called "magnum" blackpowder loads and in no way equal the ballistic capabilities of even low-end rifle cartridges for deer. Most states have officials who are sufficiently informed that they recognize we're talking apples and apples, performance-wise, not apples and oranges.

In the hands of a very savvy load-developer, who is equally skilled in shooting discipline, the ML II is THEORETICALLY capable of 200 yard performance, but I am here to tell you that is no mean trick when staying within recommended loading criteria. And that isn't outside the ridiculous claims some of the three-pellet "mag" manufacturers are putting out.

The thing to remember, I believe, is that the ML II is a MUZZLELOADER. It uses the same type of loading procedures and sabot / bullet combinations that other "modern" muzzleloaders do. It requires the same type of load development, and is subject to similar range and performance restrictions. In addition to being suitable for black powder, Pyrodex, and any of the latest, greatest contemporary black powder substitutes, it can also use the OLDEST AND MOST RELIABLE ONE ... "SMOKELESS" POWDER.

Beyond that, it is quite simply the strongest and safest muzzleloading rifle ever commercially produced, bar none. It is a nice piece of work, if you like that sort of thing.

It seems to me that we need not worry about it being any sort of threat. It's been around for a decade. The idea is not a new one. It's designer was one of the acknowledged all-time greats of muzzleloading, and it has the thumbs-up from his peers.

As to the "spirit" of muzzleloading seasons, that is an entirely subjective matter. I daresay the "spirit" behind hunting during these seasons is as varied as the hunters who enjoy them. Is it a chance to be primitive? Is it a chance to get out before general gun season opens? Is it a way to get in more time in the woods? Is it a way to enjoy a late post-gun season? Is it just another hunting opportunity?

Yes. It's any of them, or all of them, depending on who you are ... and evidently, most state agencies agree.

In the end, to each his own. I know I won't change anybody's mind if they're set in their viewpoint ... but for the record, I think the above needed to be said. I don't know about a lot of things, but I do know muzzleloading, and as an enthusiast and gun-builder I had to comment on the Savage 10 ML II issue.

It's the way I see it, and what I've stated as fact you can trust.

My opinions are my own, and you may consider or disregard them.

Cordially and in support of the sport,

Grizz

the elf · Post by **the elf** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 6:05 pm

Hi all-- I think you people should read my post on trading post of Sept.07/06.regarding the savage smokeless muzzleloader and especially the noted testing site------very good read !!!----ELF.

Grizzly Adam · Post by **Grizzly Adam** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 8:14 pm

Well, I went to the Trading Post and looked up September 7, '06 ... and there isn't any post about the Savage 10 ML II there.

So what's your point, Elf? Contradictory, or affirmatory?

Grizz

vapredhunter · Post by **vapredhunter** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 9:44 pm

Farmer you bet, can't wait Saturdays almost here. I shoot a Stainless Knight Wolverine 209. Took three years of shooting and tring different loads to get good groups now it shoots pretty good.Good luck Chris,

the elf · Post by **the elf** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 11:17 pm

Hey Grizz----sorry I sent you to wrong place----it should have been to----trading post-----------wtb--savage 10 ml2--by deerhunter--and my reply to it----the website my post refers to says that Savage altered the design of the breech plug from the original design and it now is not as good as the original and must be replaced after 100---150 shots and has the potential to be dangerous,because of the excess corrosion since the design change. With the introduction of smokeless powders into muzzleloaders--it will certainly make it a cleaner shooting gun------but---some nitpicking lawmaker might try to say that since you[smokeless powder users] are now using it we will now put you back in regular rifle season.Sorry about the wrong info.

ELF.

Normous · Post by **Normous** » Wed Nov 01, 2006 6:52 am

Thompson Center Omega/Leupold 3x9
300gr Dead Center bullet
Triple 7 powder 110gr. Scale weighed (not by volume) for consistancy.
Triple 7 209 primers
1 1/2 group at 100 yards from a benchrest.

Sierra · Post by **Sierra** » Wed Nov 01, 2006 11:58 am

I applaud Grizzly Adam's post. There is much truth in his statements and personal opinions.

I have read the article on the website which Mr. T.B. stated his results and findings. In the year that I have had the MLII, I have fired over 500 shots with varying loads. Some loads with very heavy recoil, which were not recommended by Savage. I have checked the breech plug with every cleaning and have found no evidence of plug erosion. I, personally, find it very difficult to put much weight in T.B.s article.

Would one believe that Savage would continue to manufacture inferior firearms of any kind and market them with a possibility of a liability lawsuit in their future?

Any firearm can fail. It is the owner's responsibility to be cognoscente of the condition of the firearm and loads used.

I use the Savage ML during the Ohio shotgun season. In the past I have seen shotgun totting hunters spray six shots from a pump shotgun as fast as an auto-feeding rifle could. I definitely do not feel that this is sporting and it is very dangerous. I would rather have one well placed shot to dispatch such a magnificent creature as the whitetail deer.

I did not intend to stir up any controversy.

TPM · Post by **TPM** » Wed Nov 01, 2006 12:26 pm

In the past I have seen shotgun totting hunters spray six shots from a pump shotgun as fast as an auto-feeding rifle could. I definitely do not feel that this is sporting and it is very dangerous. I would rather have one well placed shot to dispatch such a magnificent creature as the whitetail deer.

Don't blame the shotgun for something the shooter does. I too believe in humane one shot kills and one slug from my shotgun is quite capable of that.

schnarrfuss · Post by **schnarrfuss** » Fri Nov 03, 2006 7:53 pm

I sometimes use my Traditions Lightening Bolt ml here in our controlled deer hunt. I switch between my Rem. 870 slug gun and my ml. The ml gives me some more distance in my shot. Will be at it starting Dec.4th.