new carbon express bolts

[sumner4991]

It stands to reason that the faster and heavier an object is, the harder it will be to knock off course. Faster vs. heavier . . .where is the trade-off? Is the weight more important than the speed when talking about stability? I know speed is better for getting the bolt to travel flatter . . .but, what's the best for wind resistance . . .longer vs. shorter, with everything else the same, I would think the longer object would be easier to blow off course because there's more wind hitting a surface.

I don't know . . .trying to find out . . .

[shurite44]

It stands to reason that the faster and heavier an object is, the harder it will be to knock off course. Faster vs. heavier . . .where is the trade-off? Is the weight more important than the speed when talking about stability? I know speed is better for getting the bolt to travel flatter . . .but, what's the best for wind resistance . . .longer vs. shorter, with everything else the same, I would think the longer object would be easier to blow off course because there's more wind hitting a surface.

I don't know . . .trying to find out . . .

Well reference wind effect I think a simple way to look at it would be this. If your 350 grain bolt takes 1 second to go 100 yards and your 450 grain bolt takes 1 second also they will drift the same.

The heavier bolt fired at the same initial speed as the lighter bolt should drift less because its greater inertia will fight the drag and it will carry it's speed better. That is if they have a similar shape reference drag.

But if you shoot a heavier bolt out of the same xbow the initial speed drops. So there is a little problem with just going up in weight on an xbow to gain less wind effect, because the initial velocity of the bolt will drop.

There are other forces like the shape of the bolt but in general I think that should hold true.

But wind drift is basically a speed vs time problem. If you know wind speed and direction and the constant airspeed you can calculate wind drift for a flying object with out knowing the weight over a cetain period of time. Remember I said constant speed.

For example, in the air force we all used the same whiz wheel (circular slide rule), to calculate wind drift regardless of the aircraft. So size did not matter, LOL. Anyway I realize this only partially pertains to bolt ballistics due to the constant deceleration of a bolt.

[sumner4991]

What about oscillation on a lighter bolt vs. heavy? I would think in the case of higher speeds and heavy draw weights, the oscillation created would cause a fixed head blade to act crazy at times, especially in windy conditions. Maybe that's why some folks are finding it hard to consistantly hit the bullseye with the slick tricks. Just thinking out loud here. See the link at CX . . .bottom of page.

http://www.carbonexpressarrows.com/medi ... vies.shtml

[sumner4991]

Here's another link that explains arrow flight and effects . . .I need a someone to explain it all!

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/joetapley/arrowstab.htm

[shurite44]

There is a lot to ballistics. There are many things than cause a bolt to fly differently I agree.

But I think in general if we are thinking about wind effect. Whichever bolt gets from point A to B the fastest will have less wind effect. By that I mean the speed of the wind will have less time to effect the bolt.

So if the 350 grain leaves faster than the 450 and holds its edge on speed to the prescribed distance, lets say 40 yards, then it will have covered that distance faster and the wind will have less effect on it.

Now lets say at some point the heavier bolt catches up to the lighter because of increased inertia overcoming drag and it goes from point A to point C which is 90 yards faster than the lighter bolt, then the heavier bolt will have less wind effect.

In other words whichever one is winning the race when it ends is the winner, LOL. If you get what I mean.

Those are good links Summer, I did not read them real close yet, but I want to. I would say there is some knowledge to be gathered there.

[shurite44]

Also think of trajectory and the forces of gravity. It is similar really to wind effect. It is just force over time applied to an object. So the faster a bolt fly's to the target the less it will drop.

I realize there are other forces involved in drop like FOC, but in general the amount of drop is governed by how much time gravity is given to act on the flying body. So faster drops less.

Summer what I have really done is take inertia and drag out of the equation just to isolate wind effect. I know that is not real world. But if the flying object has a constant speed, as in my first example with aircrafts' then these are practical ways to look at it.

But with all that said, I think if the 350 travels the 30 yards faster than the 450, then it will have less wind effect.

Maybe I should stop trying to explain this, I may becoming a little boring. Plus I am just speculating on the ballistics end of this. I don't know that much about ballistics.

[sumner4991]

shurite44 . . .I see what you mean. I'm learning here.

OK . . .in general faster is better . . .unless the power of the bow is too much on the shaft and creates so much oscillation that the bolt is unable to stabilize in an efficient manner, thus causing it to lose energy/speed. The "extra" wobble which may be created with too thin/light a bolt could be causing the fixed broadhead to catch too much wind and get way off course(I think four inches at 30 yards is "way off" course). As the blades are spinning and wobbling, there's a window of opportunity for the wind to catch a blade. Anyway, there is a science to tuning the bolt to the bow, no doubt. I just don't believe enough attention has been given to this part of the flight equation. Well, until CX added the FOC build in, heavy bolt with Blazer vanes. I got to believe others will follow the lead. These high pound draw crossbows and the high speed xbows will need a special bolt, IMHO.

On a 30 yard shot, we will probably never notice the effect. I just want to start next season with the best possible set-up for my Max. As far as the cost . . .it's relatively small over the long run. I don't use too many bolts. I've already spent the big money.

[shurite44]

True speed can cause instability. But remember, in this day and age the speed of a bolt is really quite slow compared to other type projectiles we have mastered.

So the difference in speed between a 350 and 450 in my experience does not effect flight. That is if the bolt is set up properly. My most accurate bolt is the 345 out of the emax. The other bolts shoot good, but the less wind effect and flatter trajectory makes this my best bolt. Especially on a windy day. I am talking now from practical experiences. I have shot all these bolts from the same xbow.

I can group 3 inches or better, many times hitting 1.5 inch bulls eye at 50 yards. Now this is off of a tripod my xbow clamps to. So basically I have no shooter error.

I agree with Summer a mechanical is going to have better aerodynamics than a fixed blade. But some of the fix blades designed for fast flight work very well. The broad head needs to be short, not long like a muzzy. Something like a nitron. Which is what has given me the best performance so far. Not really sure why a short broad head fly's better but they do. I think a longer blade probably encounter more lift forces due to the length of the wing or blade. Keep your cutting diameter less then 1.25 inches also, I think my nitrons are one and an eighth.

Now oscillation of the bolt is a problem. My ten points sometimes will have a wobble. Not always but occasionally I will see the darn things give me the tail wag on the way to the target. But my Gold Tips never do this. My Gold tips were built with 5 inch blazers, I have to wonder if maybe that helps. My blazers on the ten point bolts are shorter.

I have had fun with this thread. I don't get to talk about flying much anymore since I retired, LOL.

[shurite44]

The rocket analogy is interesting. At first I thought is that really ballistics, well yes it is. But it is different in a very important way, like an aircraft a rocket carries it's propulsion system with it. So at least until burn out, it does not have the same type of ballistic behavior as a bolt or bullet. A bolt or bullet begins to lose energy immediately and then has a degrading velocity until it hits the target. So in general at that point it is greatly effected by wind, air resistance, and lift. A guided rocket on the other hand is overcoming these forces until burn out, at that point, yes it is effected just like a bolt.

Just thought I would throw that in as food for thought.

[Big John]

How come no-one is saying anything about "helping out" the different weights with compensating for stability with increased off-set in your fletching, which will keep your patterns (groups) tighter as well. By using a heavier degree of off-set on a shorter, let's say 4"in. fletch, you will improve stability. I have been checking and trying different combo's of 6' and 7' deg. off-set patterns with much better results. It tightens up the groups. This with targets from bench rest, and 3 -D targets from Tree's.

[Doe Master]

I`m with John on this one if you are going to start talking ballistics you have to include twist into the equation as well .

[sumner4991]

John . . .what is the effect of the degree to the fixed blade? I can understand how the extra spin would help a target tip. However, seems like it might have a counter effect on a fixed blade. Extra spin on a mechanical I can easily see as beneficial. Have you shot fixed blades on that set-up? How did they perform?

Shurite . . .in the links, the guy talks about the vanes and if I understand it correctly, the longer vanes stabilize quicker. If that's so, then how do the Blazer vanes claim to get the job done quicker?

There's needs to be an equation that optimizes bolt flight using draw weight, degree fletching, bolt lenght, head weight, vane length . . . .and everything else. I guess the added problem is the different technologies out there.

The only reason I don't see this as a ballistic issue is due to the oscillation factor. I have watched my Gold Tips wobble.

[shurite44]

I don't really know anything about the blazer vane Summer. My ten point and my beemans both have I think a 4 inch, but my Gold tips have a 5 inch.

Hard to say really why they fly better. I don't know that much about all the intricacies of bolt flight. But I do know the setup I have is very accurate. Like I said I never see the tail wagging on the gold tips. But I do on the ten points, now the beeman thunderbolts fly good with 125 grain muzzy's. But I can not group them 3 inches at 50 yards like I can those little fast Gold tips with the nitrons.

Just personal experience, I read a lot of reviews and decided to try that set up and it worked for me nicely. But I shoot the ten points from the vixen, and the beemans from the maxpoint. I mean at 30 yards I can bullseye with any of the xbow/bolt combo's I have. But sometimes I like to move that target way out like 50 yards and that is when you really start to notice bolt flight.

Really all these carbons probably fly pretty darn good. But I will probably try some of these in the link.

[shurite44]

I would love to hear a discussion on vanes. Feather vs plastic, 2-3-4-5- inch, degree offset, blazer vanes. It is just a discussion so if anyone has anything to add feel free. I know very little about that, but I sure would like to learn.

Not my thread but I know summer won't mind.

[sumner4991]

From the Bohning website . . . .


The Blazer™ Vane What It Is And Why It Works.
Bohning's revolutionary new Blazer™ Broadhead Vane has changed the way archers think about arrow guidance, especially with fixed-blade broadheads. Most of us have been led to believe that more is better when it comes to our vanes and feathers making our broadheads fly like our field points. The Blazer™ Vane proves that theory wrong by out performing 4 or 5 inch vanes or feathers…and the Blazer™ is only two inches long. HOW CAN THAT BE POSSIBLE? Independent testing shows that while some spin is necessary for accurate flight, too much can cause your arrow to lose speed very rapidly. What is required is a guidance system that will take over and steer the arrow regardless of what the broadhead is doing. The Blazer™, with its unique design begins steering and correcting immediately. The combination of the steep leading edge angle, and material stiffness, enables the air to flow over the vane in a manner that actually creates lift and leaves the tip of each vane inside undisturbed air. This is similar to the drafting principle used in auto racing. This airflow created by the precise leading edge angle allows the tip of each vane to act like a rudder, which is very noticeable at longer distances with the flatter trajectory Blazer™ vanes provide. Just give the Blazer™ a try and you will believe! Weighs 5 grains, .6 inches high.
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Mini Blazer Vane
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A 1.5" version of our Blazer vane, designed specifically for target shooters looking for the Blazer's steering capabilities, with less weight. Weighs 3 grains, .4 inches high.
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“X” Vane
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Target archers are benefiting from our vane options and Bohning's legendary quality and durability. Available in seven vane sizes.

*More Information
100 and 1000 packs available
1.5" Shield (2 grains) .3" high
1.8" (4 grains) .4" high
2" (6 grains) .4" high
2.25" Shield (5 grains) .4" high
2.4" (6 grains) .4" high
3" (8 grains) .5" high
4" LP (9 grains) .4" high
Weights are approximate


Killer Vanes
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Hunting vanes available in 4" (12 grains, .5" high) and 5" (15 grains, .6" high).