is noise really a problem?
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bait pile willie
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is noise really a problem?
taken from pa. game news feb 2007."while many hunters claim the deer heard the bow or saw the arrow coming and ducked the real reason is poor range estimation and where the hunter held his sight on the target.but lets visit the deer ducking the arrow theory.its impossible for a deer to actually see the arrow coming,so that can be eliminated as a valid reason.as far as a deer hearing the bow and ducking the arrow,lets look at this,with todays faster bows,based on atyppical bow-shot of 20 yds.would mean the arrow would take less then a quarter of a second to reach the target. that means a deer must hear the shot,recognize the danger,react and move out of the way in less then that quarter of a second.possible?I doubt it.the more likely explanation is that the arrow passed over the back of the deer before the deer reacted,which means that if the arrow had been properly placed, it would have a hit.when the hunter sees the deer "duck" its normally after the arrow has passed and is buried in the ground." AN ITERESTING CONCPT.
noise
We visit this again eh.
I agree with the statements above this time. At short range it doesn't matter how load. IMO anyway. Out at longer ranges of 40 yds plus, maybe. At twenty-five yds. a cannon could go off, it would still be to late for the Deer.
I agree with the statements above this time. At short range it doesn't matter how load. IMO anyway. Out at longer ranges of 40 yds plus, maybe. At twenty-five yds. a cannon could go off, it would still be to late for the Deer.
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Micro 315 - 410 gr. Zombies/Lumenoks
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Arrowmaker - Retired
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Grizzly Adam
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This is a matter of interest to me, and one I've paid a lot of attention to. What I have to say just my take on the matter, but it is a carefully researched and reasoned one, through the documented experience of others and my own long bowhunting experience.
Hunting videos leave no doubt that deer can and often do begin to move before the arrow strikes ... but usually not enough to substantially effect arrow placement for a killing shot. My little brother has dozens and dozens of bowhunting videos, and our DVD player has a frame advance feature, so I've slow-motioned hundreds of impacts frame-by-frame ... close, medium and long range. In many cases when a shot is made at very close range, the deer reacts but has hardly moved by the time the arrow impacts. In most cases when a shot is made at medium range, the deer has begun to drop into "spring position," but the movement isn't enough to take the arrow out of the kill zone. In almost every case where a shot is made at long distance, the deer has moved several inches or more, usually down and sometimes forward ... seldom enough to cause a serious problem with arrow placement ... but often enough to affect it by several inches.
The tendency and ability of deer to begin to drop into that "spring-crouch" position is so well known that many hunters intentionally aim for the best low shot in the vital area, knowing full well that the deer is likely to drop down a couple or several inches by the time the arrow arrives. Instinctive archer Dan Fitzgerald, producer of a popular line of hunting videos, has explained this and demonstrated it on camera ... and whether you like him and his work or not, no one can argue that the man knows his stuff, and can stick an arrow in a deer with more certainty than the vast majority of us.
In the end, a noisy shot probably isn't going to cost you the deer if your shot placement is good and your arrow speed is fast. However, if your placement is poor and especially high, and your arrow speed is low, a noisy shot certainly can cost you a hit ... and untold spine shots occur for just these reasons.
In 99% of situations, we can know this: the deer will hear the release or shot, and the deer will begin to drop before impact, perhaps a little and perhaps quite a bit ... but not enough to make a difference if the shot was within a sensible range and the speed was quick enough.
I can also say this: Having hunted extensively with longbows and compounds, it has been my experience that deer react less to the release of an arrow from a stick bow, which is in fact very quiet compared to most compounds. On some longer shots I've made, I have seen no reaction to the release, but the same reaction as the arrow neared, which tells me that the "swwzzzzzzhhh" of the arrow is something they can hear too. On the other hand, when I was hunting with an Oneida AeroForce, which sounded like a clap of thunder upon release, their reaction was immediate.
So does sound make a difference? Yes. Does it make enough of a difference to fret about? No ... not if you hunt carefully.
Another interesting note: In Horton's Crossbow Chronicles, which show a number of crossbow kills on film, the deer do not seem to move at all prior to impact on some shots ... which I can only surmise is because of the exceptionally fast speed of the crossbow bolts as compared to most compounds. The comparitive difference between those shots and bow shots is noteworthy. The deer I killed this year with my Exomax didn't seem to move much either, before the arrow was through them.
There's my $2 worth!
Hunting videos leave no doubt that deer can and often do begin to move before the arrow strikes ... but usually not enough to substantially effect arrow placement for a killing shot. My little brother has dozens and dozens of bowhunting videos, and our DVD player has a frame advance feature, so I've slow-motioned hundreds of impacts frame-by-frame ... close, medium and long range. In many cases when a shot is made at very close range, the deer reacts but has hardly moved by the time the arrow impacts. In most cases when a shot is made at medium range, the deer has begun to drop into "spring position," but the movement isn't enough to take the arrow out of the kill zone. In almost every case where a shot is made at long distance, the deer has moved several inches or more, usually down and sometimes forward ... seldom enough to cause a serious problem with arrow placement ... but often enough to affect it by several inches.
The tendency and ability of deer to begin to drop into that "spring-crouch" position is so well known that many hunters intentionally aim for the best low shot in the vital area, knowing full well that the deer is likely to drop down a couple or several inches by the time the arrow arrives. Instinctive archer Dan Fitzgerald, producer of a popular line of hunting videos, has explained this and demonstrated it on camera ... and whether you like him and his work or not, no one can argue that the man knows his stuff, and can stick an arrow in a deer with more certainty than the vast majority of us.
In the end, a noisy shot probably isn't going to cost you the deer if your shot placement is good and your arrow speed is fast. However, if your placement is poor and especially high, and your arrow speed is low, a noisy shot certainly can cost you a hit ... and untold spine shots occur for just these reasons.
In 99% of situations, we can know this: the deer will hear the release or shot, and the deer will begin to drop before impact, perhaps a little and perhaps quite a bit ... but not enough to make a difference if the shot was within a sensible range and the speed was quick enough.
I can also say this: Having hunted extensively with longbows and compounds, it has been my experience that deer react less to the release of an arrow from a stick bow, which is in fact very quiet compared to most compounds. On some longer shots I've made, I have seen no reaction to the release, but the same reaction as the arrow neared, which tells me that the "swwzzzzzzhhh" of the arrow is something they can hear too. On the other hand, when I was hunting with an Oneida AeroForce, which sounded like a clap of thunder upon release, their reaction was immediate.
So does sound make a difference? Yes. Does it make enough of a difference to fret about? No ... not if you hunt carefully.
Another interesting note: In Horton's Crossbow Chronicles, which show a number of crossbow kills on film, the deer do not seem to move at all prior to impact on some shots ... which I can only surmise is because of the exceptionally fast speed of the crossbow bolts as compared to most compounds. The comparitive difference between those shots and bow shots is noteworthy. The deer I killed this year with my Exomax didn't seem to move much either, before the arrow was through them.
There's my $2 worth!
Grizz
I somewhat question the sight not being a factor part of the statement. If a deer is looking at you when you shoot it will see the movement of the limbs and react. As far as noise the deer can react quickly, but whether it becomes a factor depends on the deer. I've had them react, and I've had them seem to ignore the noise. The way I deal with the possibility of the deer reacting is to get close enough to make the shot good even if they do react. With most modern bows shooting arrows at 250+ fps 20 to 25 yards is a pretty safe shot. As arrow speed increases range increases, but not by much. Maybe extend it 5 yards for 300 fps and 10 yards for 350 fps. I have a Phoenix shooting at around 290 - 300 fps with my setup and I might try 30 yards if everything "feels" right. But both deer I shot this year were less than 10 yards and at that range all I have to do is make an accurate shot. 
I guess you might compare them to people. I've known people you could slip up behind and send them up the wall by clapping your hands. I've known others you could throw a firecracker under and they would simply look around. Not all people are the same, so why should all deer be?
I guess you might compare them to people. I've known people you could slip up behind and send them up the wall by clapping your hands. I've known others you could throw a firecracker under and they would simply look around. Not all people are the same, so why should all deer be?
wabi
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sumner4991
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Not a factor . . .I agree totally with that article. I think they took that information from my arguements on an earlier thread . . . 
Of course, I don't think it's a factor at longer ranges either(I'm a minority here). Mechanical and human error are the problems with making a "long shot". Therefore, keep your shots short until the broadhead/bolt manufacturers get it right for us crossbow shooters.
The sentiment for not making long shots will change drastically over the next three years. Changes are coming and there's nothing we can do about it. Faster bows, better bolts, better broadheads, and improved fletching, all designed for high speed.
Of course, I don't think it's a factor at longer ranges either(I'm a minority here). Mechanical and human error are the problems with making a "long shot". Therefore, keep your shots short until the broadhead/bolt manufacturers get it right for us crossbow shooters.
The sentiment for not making long shots will change drastically over the next three years. Changes are coming and there's nothing we can do about it. Faster bows, better bolts, better broadheads, and improved fletching, all designed for high speed.
I'd rather wear out than rust out.
Perception trumps intention.
2006 Exomax w/Agingcrossbower Custom Stock
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Perception trumps intention.
2006 Exomax w/Agingcrossbower Custom Stock
20" Easton Powerbolts w/125gr Trophy Ridge Stricknines & 2"Blazers
Boo Custom Strings
2006 Vixen
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Grizzly Adam
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Here's something else I think can factor in concering noise: I think it's possible to be TOO CLOSE when bowhunting deer. One of my worst hits ever was the result of taking a shot at a big doe with a Ferguson Redhawk longbow at about 10 feet. I was hiding in a field edge behind a big loblolly pine and drew as she went behind it, and when she stepped beyond it, I released. She was still walking, and accelerated at light speed ... and I hit her in the ham. Off she went, about twenty yards along the field, and into the woods. I pulled out and left her for two hours, and went back with a buddy ... and found her piled up about twenty yards in ... from a severed femoral artery.
No one will ever convince me that she didn't move that much, because I was no rookie, and I SAW her move that much. Maybe it isn't a factor with crossbows, but I think you're best to have 'em 10 yards out or so when bowhunting. I've had other really close ones jump out of their skin too, but without such bad results.
Wabi, I believe you're right about deer being different, too. I think our little southern deer are both more nervous acting and faster moving than those cattle ya'll hunt in the Midwest (I have lots of experience with them too!) ... I know your deer are easier to hit. They're a whole lot bigger!
Sumner, I haven't had your problems in getting bolts with broadheads to perform ... the Gold Tips and Wasps in the Right Stuff package worked very well for me. What problems have you had?
No one will ever convince me that she didn't move that much, because I was no rookie, and I SAW her move that much. Maybe it isn't a factor with crossbows, but I think you're best to have 'em 10 yards out or so when bowhunting. I've had other really close ones jump out of their skin too, but without such bad results.
Wabi, I believe you're right about deer being different, too. I think our little southern deer are both more nervous acting and faster moving than those cattle ya'll hunt in the Midwest (I have lots of experience with them too!) ... I know your deer are easier to hit. They're a whole lot bigger!
Sumner, I haven't had your problems in getting bolts with broadheads to perform ... the Gold Tips and Wasps in the Right Stuff package worked very well for me. What problems have you had?
Grizz
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crazyfarmer
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like grizz said, its proven that deer jump the string by video evidence. As soon as you hear the thump, deer start to drop. I had hell with my compound bow because it only shoots about 235fps and deer loved to jump that string. On something that shoots 300+, jumping isnt that big of a factor. But deer are quick enough to jump a string... espically... this really helps there jumping here. If one knows you are there they will react about 3 times quicker than if one doesnt know you are hunting him.
Im use to quiet bows. With my compound if I missed I could re knock a arrow and get another shot. plus no one knows you shot. Ive actaully heard a buddie shoot his xbow when I was up a stand. I like being deadly quiet when bowhunting. I know its all about one shot. But when deer here that lound thump, espically big bucks, then I doubt they will pass through that stand area again. I know on the one deer I killed with mine, it cleared the woods after the shot from being so loud. Does sound bother me that much now? No.. Would I love a quieter xbow.. sure, who wouldnt
Im use to quiet bows. With my compound if I missed I could re knock a arrow and get another shot. plus no one knows you shot. Ive actaully heard a buddie shoot his xbow when I was up a stand. I like being deadly quiet when bowhunting. I know its all about one shot. But when deer here that lound thump, espically big bucks, then I doubt they will pass through that stand area again. I know on the one deer I killed with mine, it cleared the woods after the shot from being so loud. Does sound bother me that much now? No.. Would I love a quieter xbow.. sure, who wouldnt
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Grizzly Adam
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The brisket! Ouch! 
Sounds like you aimed just a bit too low that time, Bob! That's one place I haven't hit one. About the only place, my detractors would say, but then, they have a smear campaign going!
When reviewing the following, keep in mind that I'm speaking from vertical bowhunting experience, most with longbows, for perspective:
I always aim to hit a deer just below "midships" ... but never to "centerpunch." In my experience, aiming dead center when shooting past 20 yards is a good way to spine 'em, because they sometimes do drop. I understand what you're saying about angles, but it hasn't been the case with me, because 95% of my bow-killed deer have been taken from the ground, or from very low (6') tripod stands, just to get up out of the cane and brush ... and there are no hills here; it's billiard-table flat. Nonetheless, I have seen many a deer begin to crouch (and that's what is happening when people say they "jumped the string") at the shot. The reason I've been able to see is because of instinctive shooting with stickbows, in which your eye easily follows the flight of the arrow to impact. And any instinctive stickbow shooter can tell you that a deer certainly can get out of the way of an arrow moving 170 fps or less!
Groundhunting with primitive and traditional equipment has been the best education about what deer do and don't when shot at I could ever have asked for. Video review has been a benefit too.
I think archers shooting bows or crossbows making near and over 300 fps might as well aim for center in the vitals, taking into consideration the difference elevation makes, if they're into nosebleed seats. I'm not. I don't have claws for climbing trees or wings to fly up there ... must be a reason for that, I always figured!
Interesting discussion, anyway. As always, your mileage may vary.
Sounds like you aimed just a bit too low that time, Bob! That's one place I haven't hit one. About the only place, my detractors would say, but then, they have a smear campaign going!
When reviewing the following, keep in mind that I'm speaking from vertical bowhunting experience, most with longbows, for perspective:
I always aim to hit a deer just below "midships" ... but never to "centerpunch." In my experience, aiming dead center when shooting past 20 yards is a good way to spine 'em, because they sometimes do drop. I understand what you're saying about angles, but it hasn't been the case with me, because 95% of my bow-killed deer have been taken from the ground, or from very low (6') tripod stands, just to get up out of the cane and brush ... and there are no hills here; it's billiard-table flat. Nonetheless, I have seen many a deer begin to crouch (and that's what is happening when people say they "jumped the string") at the shot. The reason I've been able to see is because of instinctive shooting with stickbows, in which your eye easily follows the flight of the arrow to impact. And any instinctive stickbow shooter can tell you that a deer certainly can get out of the way of an arrow moving 170 fps or less!
Groundhunting with primitive and traditional equipment has been the best education about what deer do and don't when shot at I could ever have asked for. Video review has been a benefit too.
I think archers shooting bows or crossbows making near and over 300 fps might as well aim for center in the vitals, taking into consideration the difference elevation makes, if they're into nosebleed seats. I'm not. I don't have claws for climbing trees or wings to fly up there ... must be a reason for that, I always figured!
Interesting discussion, anyway. As always, your mileage may vary.
Grizz
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bait pile willie
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the article i quoted from is entitled GETTING THE RANGE. BY JOHN KASUN in the feb issue of pennsylvania game news.where he also stated"there are many excuses for a miss, but at the top of the list is inaccurate range estimation.I know that is the reason for my misses and if we hunt long enough with bows we will be all guilty of this one.just shoot a couple of 3-D shoots to find this out.and these targets dony jump the string.another quote this time fromG.FRED ASBELL,a noted traditional archer UNTIL THE SPEED OF AN ARROW SURPASSES THE SPEED OF SOUND,SOUND WILL ALWAYS BE MORE IMPORTANT THAN SPEED.
I don't think noise is much an issue with the faster bows now a days I have never had a deer duck a shot on me, but I sure have made my share of mistakes and when I miss if I mentally replay the events of the shot I can usually blame the miss on me, not my equipment. Sometimes it is hard to stay focused when your adrenilien gets going and you think the deer can hear your heart pounding!!! M&M
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crazyfarmer
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I think the question is...
If Excal made a quiet xbow which was just as fast and everything else was the same as your current bow, would you get the quiet one
or if you were looking for xbows and they had a quiet exocet200 and a normal loud exocet 200, which would you buy
I'd by buy the quiet ones hands down.. not that something like that would ever be made though LOL
I just dont want to scare the lil critters off that are feeding next to me
If Excal made a quiet xbow which was just as fast and everything else was the same as your current bow, would you get the quiet one
or if you were looking for xbows and they had a quiet exocet200 and a normal loud exocet 200, which would you buy
I'd by buy the quiet ones hands down.. not that something like that would ever be made though LOL
I just dont want to scare the lil critters off that are feeding next to me
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Grizzly Adam
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Bstout said: "Grizz: Shooting while standing on the ground is exactly the same as from a tree stand when sharp angles are involved."
Yep. Elevation is elevation. We ain't got none, beyond base! I have virtually no experience shooting downward or upward. When I say it's flat around here, I mean flat like the proverbial pancake. There isn't fifteen feet of elevation variation across this whole county! It's the coastal plain. My farmland varies from 3.6 to 3.8 feet above sea level. They say it came from the constant lapping of the ocean ages ago. Maybe they're right. Dig down five feet here and you're into seashells the size of BB shot.
As you note, angle considerations remain constant wherever one is elevated or shooting uphill, even as the very slight angle considerations when shooting in this flat country bear always bear keeping in mind.
Personally, I use a method I learned in reading a Peter Hathaway Capstick book concerning hitting the vitals. I picture a rubber ball suspended in the animals chest, and aim to skewer that ball rather than aiming at a particular point on the hide. Works like a charm ... and automatically factors in angle. Experience in shooting at angles is another thing!
Longbow shooting is also a great way to learn about the realities of trajectory. Most of them include the angles for you ... one up on the way and one descending ... that old "rainbow" shot.
Yep. Elevation is elevation. We ain't got none, beyond base! I have virtually no experience shooting downward or upward. When I say it's flat around here, I mean flat like the proverbial pancake. There isn't fifteen feet of elevation variation across this whole county! It's the coastal plain. My farmland varies from 3.6 to 3.8 feet above sea level. They say it came from the constant lapping of the ocean ages ago. Maybe they're right. Dig down five feet here and you're into seashells the size of BB shot.
As you note, angle considerations remain constant wherever one is elevated or shooting uphill, even as the very slight angle considerations when shooting in this flat country bear always bear keeping in mind.
Personally, I use a method I learned in reading a Peter Hathaway Capstick book concerning hitting the vitals. I picture a rubber ball suspended in the animals chest, and aim to skewer that ball rather than aiming at a particular point on the hide. Works like a charm ... and automatically factors in angle. Experience in shooting at angles is another thing!
Longbow shooting is also a great way to learn about the realities of trajectory. Most of them include the angles for you ... one up on the way and one descending ... that old "rainbow" shot.
Grizz