Rule Set for Deer Teams

kendo kid · Post by **kendo kid** » Mon Jan 21, 2008 9:57 pm

Some thoughts about this process.

1.) I hunt for the enjoyment of hunting. This includes taking cull bucks, does etc.
2.) I am not sure the teams promote herd health and good management.
3.) If I hunt for a score for the team the type of deer I take may be very different than what I would shoot for the health of the herd.
4.) Friendly competition is good as long as the goal of the competition is clear.

Perhaps we should rethink the score allocation and put more points on does and less on bucks. This is especially true and helpful in certain areas of Ontario where overpopulation is becoming an issue. Let's change the scoring.

crazyfarmer · Post by **crazyfarmer** » Tue Jan 22, 2008 8:55 am

Kendo, I doubt the contest has anything to do with taking smaller bucks. Everyone has their own definition of a trophy and will shoot which buck they feel like. If you look back on last years season from members here, the bucks they took are no different than this years:) Im always after the biggest buck out there so I probably pass on 20-30 small bucks every year. But some cant hunt much and some dont kill to many deer every year. Oh and yes I would love to see everyone start letting the non shooters walk, but its a free country:)

its to each their own, but I doubt this contest made someone shoot a smaller buck just to get pts.

but maybe next year have something different were only bucks over 12inches can be scored. In the QDM program we are in here, 12inches is the bottom line. Granted that not a huge buck either but its a starting point. Still, this contest was just something members could put deer they kill everyyear into just to see who did what:) I do know where you are coming from and if someone was just blasting deer over to get pts from no reason, then they should rethink what hunting is about

I dont think anyone here would do that though

rutman · Post by **rutman** » Tue Jan 22, 2008 2:09 pm

The gang I hunt with have a controlled hunt policy. If it's brown it's down. My selective hunting is my bow hunt and it's not that way at all. We get at least a deer each every year and shoot some big and some small bucks and several doe's and fawns. Alot of these guy's take the week off and want a deer to show for it. I personally take 0 meat from the gun hunt. I know lots of hunters that hunt for themselves and target exclusively small bucks.(OLD SCHOOL). Best bang for the buck. A young buck will give you the most quality freezer meat for the cost of your tag. These same guy's have and do let "Mature" bucks Walk.
Not everybody is a trophy hunter and it's not likely to change.

huntman · Post by **huntman** » Tue Jan 22, 2008 3:57 pm

Personally i think this contest was a great idea and we have to thank Kenton for all his time. I personally took 1 doe during the shot gun hunt and one buck that had shed his antlers on the 30 of Dec with the Vortex. I did not enter either of those deer into this contest. Perhaps i should be appologizing to my team members but honestly i didnt have much interest in this i should of not ever entered my name. I think that some members had a great time with this and i would love to see it again next season. I dont believe it influenced anyone to shoot a small buck to win a competing i think whatever deer that was taken throughout this season would of been harvested regardless of this contest.

My controlled group is much like rutman's if its brown its down and from speaking to alot of hunters their groups also have the same attitude. If crazyfarmer has let 20-30 bucks walkl then that is great and all the power to him. Just wondering crazyfarm how large is the area you hunt? Is it a small acreage or extremly large?

crazyfarmer · Post by **crazyfarmer** » Tue Jan 22, 2008 4:20 pm

I hunt 100-150 acre tracks of land which I farm.. the biggest area I hunt is maybe a 300 acre farm. Normally there might be 20-50 acres of woods on those tracs I hunt so I dont think they are large by my standards. I just see alot of deer since being a farmer I see them all year long and pretty much can introduce them by name and what bush they live under

I know that roughly 20 of the ones I let walk, were killed this year also.

also, most landowners are in QDM here so we really cant shoot small bucks if we wanted to. Just because I dont have interest in something I wont atleast put on a board, doesnt mean they dont interest someone else. Im just glad we are in a free country where we can choose which to shoot still:)

Even though some dont like the borwn its down groups, they do control the herd population. It may not be a balanced herd, but they definitly thin them out. Which is good for us farmers

flbuckmaster · Post by **flbuckmaster** » Sat Feb 09, 2008 1:12 pm

Hey Kenton,
Glad your back! Against my better judgement, and with 3 weeks of the season left, I have decided to go ahead and score my 7 point today that I killed 13 days ago. he has a 14" spread and was taken with a 54 cal. muzzeloader.
http://www.excaliburcrossbow.com/phpBB2 ... hp?t=20929
I still have alot bigger bucks coming to my food plot but "a bird in hand is worth two in the bush". This post will offically tag myself out and Team Florida is now all tagged out as well. If we dont win the contest, we sure showed up a few yanks..eh?
thanks for you effort on this contest! TEAM FLORIDA RULES!!!!!!!
jay

GREY OWL · Post by **GREY OWL** » Sun Feb 10, 2008 10:05 pm

[quote="kendo kid"]Some thoughts about this process.

1.) I hunt for the enjoyment of hunting. This includes taking cull bucks, does etc.
2.) I am not sure the teams promote herd health and good management.
3.) If I hunt for a score for the team the type of deer I take may be very different than what I would shoot for the health of the herd.
4.) Friendly competition is good as long as the goal of the competition is clear.

Perhaps we should rethink the score allocation and put more points on does and less on bucks. This is especially true and helpful in certain areas of Ontario where

Not sure what you mean by this Kendo Kid. I think shooting and entering one buck and two does is promoting herd health, your harvesting twice as many does as bucks. Here, where I hunt I can only shoot one buck and one doe in my zone. For my other doe I go to another zone, which is a pain and more expensive. I'll admit the likelyhood of shooting a whopper buck is stacked in my favor, because of the shear size of bucks here. Forum members in the southern states don't stand a chance in beating me for the biggest buck. Boone and Crocketts are not out of the question here, so where's the fairness in that.

I think leave the rules exactly the way they are, with one small change..... all forum members should submit their names, have a dead line, then pick out of a hat for the teams. That way maybe I can be with some southern boys to even things up.

What'd ya think?????

Grey Owl

kendo kid · Post by **kendo kid** » Sun Feb 10, 2008 10:24 pm

Grey Owl,
Some areas are experiencing explosive growth in deer populations and some areas (Maine) have far lower populations per square mile. Doe control here in SW Ontario is increasingly important as the vehicle/deer accidents continue to increase. The deer poplulation, length of hunting season and (as you aptly point out) the size of individual deer, coupled with various rules about how many deer can be taken during one season varies from state to province. I like the idea of a friendly contest. I am not sure how the rules could be devleoped to be fair and take the variables of each region into account.

Let's continue to think and discuss this. Maybe we can figure it out.

crazyfarmer · Post by **crazyfarmer** » Mon Feb 11, 2008 9:09 am

I kinda like the rules, since like stated you can only enter 1 buck anyway. The only thing maybe to change is have where you cant submitt a buck as a doe. I know quite a few have taken smaller bucks and submitted them as doe. Maybe by changing that rule to where you cant enter bucks for doe pts might help make everyone happy.
what does everyone else think of that? It still doesnt matter though since everyone will shoot what they want to

Controlling deer herds will mainly rely on the person hunting that land. I know this year I did my best to help the buck/doe ratio. With kill permitts I took 22 doe and 3 bucks since the buck to doe ratio here is 1 to 12

LV2HNT · Post by **LV2HNT** » Mon Feb 11, 2008 12:54 pm

I pretty much like the rules from last season. I wasn't too enthused about the three deer limit because I don't realy need three and I only planned to take bucks. The place I hunt made it so we could only take two bucks this year instead of the three that the state allows us because they have demolished the deer herd. They also dramaticaly reduced the number of days does were in season. For as long as I have been alive the anual deer harvest has been in the 1500 to 2000 range every year. This year it was 500. Next year will be very interesting to see how they plan on getting the numbers back up. I recomended closing doe season all together and restricting bucks to atleast 6 points or bigger. So beware all you people that buy into all the possible crap that your state is feeding you about overpopulations and heard health. In some cases it is true but not in mine.

I think that everyones situations are different because of their individual heard's health and state/province regulations, so coming up with rules to please everyone will be close to impossible. Making the limit two deer (1 buck and 1 doe) would be best I think so that people in areas who can only take one or two deer a year would still be able to participate. I am definately in favor of submitting a buck as a doe because in my case, does are off limits. I realy don't think this contest is going to make people become better or more ethical hunters so that should be forgotten. We should just concentrate on coming up with something that will give the most participants and onlookers the most enjoyment.

crazyfarmer · Post by **crazyfarmer** » Mon Feb 11, 2008 1:03 pm

LV2, I believe we are actaully opening doe season all season next year in Richmond county due to the numbers. This past season every local farmer around had to get kill permitts to control the deer since everyone around here is buck crazy and let doe go by time after time. They will shoot the first spike that comes by, but let 10 doe run by and wont fire a shot. If they closed doe season out my way, their wouldnt be a buck to shoot the following year

every doe we killed this season had twins froming and some even had 3 in them. It doesnt take long for deer to multiply that way. Even with the amount I killed, the 10-20 doe that made it on that farm will reproduce more than I killed for next year. The biggest problems we have down here are still hunters that rent 2000 acres or more, shoot only wallhangers and let the doe walk. After a year or so, the doe have produced like rabbits. Plus we have game refuges everywhere you look so that doesnt help the control down here.

Im trying to push a late bow season here in Farm Beauru for the month of Jan just to give us more time in the woods. I know they wont extend firearms season, but a late archery season would be nice

anyhow, back on topic... im more than fine with the rules from this past season. Its simple and fun for everyone. Its also free for all to enter. If anything changes, maye just allow a buck to count as a buck, and maybe a 3doe limit but DOE only for those pts

flbuckmaster · Post by **flbuckmaster** » Mon Feb 11, 2008 1:07 pm

crazyfarmer wrote:I kinda like the rules, since like stated you can only enter 1 buck anyway. The only thing maybe to change is have where you cant submitt a buck as a doe. I know quite a few have taken smaller bucks and submitted them as doe. Maybe by changing that rule to where you cant enter bucks for doe pts might help make everyone happy.
What does everyone else think of that? It still doesnt matter though since everyone will shoot what they want to Controlling deer herds will mainly rely on the person hunting that land. I know this year I did my best to help the buck/doe ratio. With kill permitts I took 22 doe and 3 bucks since the buck to doe ratio here is 1 to 12

We dont have a doe problem here. Most hunting is done on public land where there is alot of pressure. Personally, I dont hunt does, I havent killed one in years. Why penalize me for my hunting pratice? The buck to doe ratio is nearly 1 to 1 in most of the areas I hunt so taking more bucks is actually healthy for our heard. I submitted two "cull" bucks for my does, these bucks needed to be taken out to allow others to thrive. Our 3 team members killed 8 bucks and 1 doe for the contest, and these where taken in alot of differant areas of Florida and Alabama, which backs up my nearly equal buck to doe ratio statement. Making me kill two does would not only go againt my beliefs, but would be unhealthy for the areas I hunt. leave the rules alone and let everyone just have fun. You guys up north dont know how lucky you are to be able to hunt the bucks you have. Dont penalize us for taking the deer available for us to hunt. I would trade 10 of our small bucks for a 20" buck you guys up north get to hunt.
jay

LV2HNT · Post by **LV2HNT** » Mon Feb 11, 2008 2:37 pm

C.F. Thats what I am getting at. The base that I hunt is seeing an all time low in deer numbers so you couldn't pay me to shoot a doe right now. But 1 hour south in the richmond area or 20 mins north in Fairfax is completely diferent and needs as many does harvested as possible. Thats why you can't come up with a rule to please everyone. What is best for one area could be the worst for another so trying to force people to adhere to someone else's idea of good management practices is wrong.
All we can do is express our views as to what makes a good management program and hope others will follow based on the situations they face in their neck of the woods.

That is why I like submitting bucks as does. Because I can shoot nothing but bucks if I think it is called for. There is no motivation to do so because I don't get any more points so where is the harm. I would have to withdraw from next years contest because I feel I would hurt my teams chances by not shooting any does which I won't do because it isn't healthy where I am hunting.

If you guys are concerned that people may be shooting spikes and other small bucks for the sake of entering them as does and winning the contest then you should make a rule saying no bucks, unless 6 points or bigger, can be counted as bucks or does.

Mike P · Post by **Mike P** » Mon Feb 11, 2008 3:19 pm

I make no bones about my way of hunting as most of you well know. I am one of the most (if not the most) dedicated trophy only hunter on this forum. That being said, my take on this contest may surprise you.

I should qualify what I am about to say by letting you know that I was approached by a few of my fellow forum members about joining teams. In each case, I graciously declined and said that I would be a bad team member as I probably wouldn’t contribute much to the team as I doubted I would take a doe. The upside would be the chance that I would take a buck that would score well for the contest. But in the overall picture, I was certain I would be a liability for any team and didn’t participate.

I sincerely doubt that the Excalibur Forum contest put on by Kenton affected deer population or changed the way anyone really hunted. What are we talking here, a hundred people or less? Let’s not get ahead of ourselves or put to much weight on this contest by burdening it with deer management considerations or hunting philosophies. Let’s look at it for what it is. It is a little contest by a bunch of friends that have come together mostly via their choice of crossbow and their availability to access the internet. Kenton put this on to help all these friends have some fun. And I am pretty sure a lot of you had that fun.

The other issues that have arisen are issues best dealt with subject by subject and not lumped together under this tread. So I will try and stick with the main issue, that being the contest. There are so many variables associated with putting on a contest of this sort on not only a national basis but an international basis that it can never be fair to all. Guys were talking North America here! The deer are bigger in some places and smaller in others. They are more numerous in some places and less in others. Now let’s throw our illustrious governments into the picture with their size and gender regulations and mix up the whole ugly kettle of stew. Any way you serve the stew, someone is going to go hungry.

What should not happen is a little event created by a member for members become a source of contention. Understand that the contest is not fair. It never could be. And, it never proclaimed to be. Kenton put it together the best he could. And he did it for your enjoyment.

I was raised on my family’s ranch in Texas. We killed a lot of deer. I killed a lot of bucks. And many of these were small bucks. But that is what we did back then. It was our culture. I later lived in Kentucky and hunted around Ft. Knox on the military reservation. I lived in Kansas and hunted the Blue Stem grasslands for bucks. I lived in Illinois and hunted the broken woodlots surrounded by cornfields. And now I hunt the hills and hollows of Southern Ohio for bucks. And every where I hunted the people who lived there had their own deer hunting culture. What I learned is that you can never impose your culture on theirs. And trying to do so is a mistake.

And doing it on this forum is a mistake as well.

sumner4991 · Post by **sumner4991** » Mon Feb 11, 2008 3:29 pm

Funny . . .I figured that people entered the contest after they knew the rules. If they didn't think they could compete based upon those rules, then they didn't become a team member . . .just like Mike P.

Every contest has it's pros and cons, this was no different. It was still fun. I for one can say, the contest did not change my hunting style. I took 10 deer, no big bucks . . .can anyone say, if it's brown, it's down? And there is still a ton of deer on the farm . . .

Can't wait till next year!

Thanks Kenton!