done for the year! FAWN QUESTION

beretta96D · Post by **beretta96D** » Mon Nov 24, 2008 8:59 am

Well, came back from the rifle hunt on Manitoulin, the first 4 days were horrible, no deer moving at all, probably from the 8 inches of snow. Friday morning things looked better with tracks, and Friday night I shot a nice 160# doe. Saturday and Sunday sounded like Fallujah around us. We ended up with another doe and a fawn.

I could have shot a lone fawn. I passed and the guys were pissed! I didn't bother to mention that last night I saw a doe and fawn, and passed on both.

I realize we have antlerless tags, but will the lone fawns make the winter? Is shooting them a more humane thing to do? Someone on the next lot shot the doe to the fawn I saw, and I couldn't shoot a doe with fawn either. I hate to orphan kids that will starve or freeze to death.

In your experience, do the fawns always follow the does closely? The doe I took was dry, and I watched her feed for 5 minutes and figured there was no fawn so I shot.

thanks,

vixenmaster · Post by **vixenmaster** » Mon Nov 24, 2008 9:01 am

usually any fawn of 135 days and older can make it on their own as they are weaned.

Savagevervet · Post by **Savagevervet** » Mon Nov 24, 2008 9:56 am

I'm no expert on deer biology, but according to the URL I'm attaching below, whitetail fawns begin foraging several days after birth and are weaned by 6 weeks. Some female fawns will mate during their first year and most male fawns leave their mothers by the end of that first year.

http://www.nhptv.org/NATUREWORKS/whitetaileddeer.htm

With that as a guide, if it's November and the opportunity presents itself to shoot a doe with fawns, I think the fawns will make it just fine. The "adult" portion of a deer's life begins pretty quickly.

By the same token, don't take a shot that's going to bother you. You don't have to explain why.

Savagevervet

VixChix · Post by **VixChix** » Mon Nov 24, 2008 10:32 am

There's nothing wrong with passing on deer or on shots you don't feel really comfortable about. The excitement is the hunt, more than the kill usually. It's not like any of us would starve this winter without venison. Our souls might shrivel up and blow away without the time spent in the woods though.

beretta96D · Post by **beretta96D** » Mon Nov 24, 2008 12:06 pm

thanks for the help and support. Is it possible other does "adopt" other fawns as well when it's time to gather for the deer yards? Is it common to see a doe with several fawns?

Thanks again,
Mike

ninepointer · Post by **ninepointer** » Mon Nov 24, 2008 12:56 pm

Over the years I've taken 2 yearlings with my crossbow and 1 yearling with my rifle. I've passed on many more yearlings. Its a personal choice, often dictated by the context. For example, my first crossbow deer was a yearling and it was a great confidence booster for me, being a long-time rifle hunter. I wouldn't rule out shooting a yearling again someday, such in a circumstance where it was late in the season and I still hadn't put any venison in the freezer.

Savagevervet · Post by **Savagevervet** » Mon Nov 24, 2008 1:10 pm

That's a good question, Mike. I have read a couple of things that suggest whitetail does and fawns may come together in loose social groups, but I think "loose" is the operative word. What I mean is that I don't think they form complex hierarchies or social bonds in those groups. Like zebra or caribou, the advantage of being in the group is to lessen the individual deer's chance of being targeted by a predator. It's a numbers game, basically.

I could be way off, but I tend to think of it this way. Short of nutrition, what can a doe realistically do to protect/defend her fawn? The doe doesn't have fangs, it doesn't have claws and it doesn't have a tough hide. Whether a doe will sacrifice herself to a predator in order to save her fawns (altruism) is something I don't know, but self-preservation is hard-wired into a whitetail's biology. You don't have to be a hunter of many years to see that. If push comes to shove, I think the doe will probably save herself.

If a doe is killed before her fawn is weaned then there's a very good chance the fawn will die of starvation. Short of poaching or predation by other animals, that's usually not a problem ethical hunters need to be concerned about. Once the fawn is foraging for itself it has to rely on its own innate defenses to survive: mainly the ability to sense danger, camouflage and speed. The fawn isn't dependent upon the doe for any of that.

And again, a yearling doe may participate in the rut the year she's born and a yearling buck may leave its mother before the year is out. My guess is that a doe's importance in the life of its young tapers dramatically once its fawns are weaned.

None of which mitigates in favor of you taking a shot you're not comfortable with. As VixChix said, it's about the hunt, not necessarily about the kill.

Savagevervet

ninepointer · Post by **ninepointer** » Mon Nov 24, 2008 1:33 pm

A fews years ago in the winter (I think it was January or February) I watched a doe with 2 yearlings digging in the snow for food. Each time one of the yearlings got too close, Mom reared up gave it some very HARD (I mean REALLY HARD) whacks on the head with her front hooves. When it came to finding food, it was clearly every deer for itself!

Savagevervet · Post by **Savagevervet** » Mon Nov 24, 2008 1:45 pm

ninepointer wrote:Each time one of the yearlings got too close, Mom reared up gave it some very HARD (I mean REALLY HARD) whacks on the head with her front hooves. When it came to finding food, it was clearly every deer for itself!

That doesn't sound very altruistic to me.

Savagevervet

wabi · Post by **wabi** » Mon Nov 24, 2008 6:04 pm

When do they stop being fawns??????
Our game department sends me a "bowhunter observation record" to fill out & return each year. It has a columns for bucks - does -fawns. By October it is sometimes very difficult to tell unless the little ones are with mama. There are some basic indications (like body length) to tell the difference, but I've seen 1 1/2 year olds that still looked like fawns, and fawns that looked like they were adults. I usually list them as does unless they are with mama and it is obvious they are this year's offspring.
The doe I shot Friday was questionable looking at first, but I could see she had suckled a fawn this year when I field dressed her. She was alone when I shot her, so the fawn was either dead or had been driven off already. As I think she may well have been the same doe I saw with a buck a couple days earlier, I'd guess she had driven off the fawn. From the amount of boned-out meat I got from her I'd guess her live weight at around 105 pounds. Not a large doe, but an adult for sure. She may have had a "reunion" with her fawn, but it's chances of survival are probably just as good without her.