AMERICANS and SELF-DEFENSE

[Hoss]

Shoot first... ask questions later.

That is what I'm afraid of.
Now you're getting it.

It's good to be afraid, that's the idea.

Fear of death (and the good Lord) will keep otherwise honest people... honest!

YEP just like locks on your car door..do you really think they will keep folks from getting in..It keeps the honest honest..

then this..BS

In Sweden (and some other countries) we have something called "Everyman's right" (Allemansrätten). This gives everyone the right to access, walk and stay on all (public I can understand that) BUT private land on the premises of "Do not disturb, do not destroy". You are allowed to pick berries (not if they are farmed) and mushrooms, collect dead wood for fires and camp even if it is private land.

Thats BS --why own property then. so others can drop buy and pick your apple tree, camp at your creek and watch you private buisness from a distance. I dont think so fella.. thats some good ole BS philosophy there. That just opens the door to some guy lurking on your property to see what you may have that he wants. OHH! SORRY FRIEND JUST GRAZZING THRU THE MUSHROOMS ON YOUR PRIVATE PROPERTY THAT YOUVE WORKED SO HARD TO OWN. BS.. Like it or not its the truth. to much crime in the USA to be so Ni eve.

Then you must think everyone is inherently good..WRONG. for instance from birth you are taught NO from the begining to keep you out of trouble. Then as you get older you learn your limits in society.

We have that same rule here in Oklahoma " Every mans right not to be shot as long as you are not on my private property". Heck i remember old man smith shooting at us with rock salt when we just ventured over to fish his pond.Made us respect asking permission first! This is going to be some good stuff to tell the boys tonight..

I knew this thread was going to open a bag a crap! Good job Grizz.

But I like it!

[kennisondan]

HI SHAREK : first I would aplogize if I get a bit testy when gun rights are discussed. It is my number one right in my book... it would ensure the rest of the freedoms that are given by law and man and natural law freedoms as well..the right to self defense is against all aggressors and within the second amendment and the unwritten law of the land or more clearly natural rights is the right and the ABILITY to protect your self and your way of life.. and to protect all the rights that you have claim to...religious freedom speech assembly all of them...
I think that if it comes across that folks would take a life lightly, I would beg to differ in that regard; the test is actually legally a two pronged test : would a reasonable man fear great bodily harm or death to you or another; and also did the individual actually reasonably fear that death or great harm... so you cannot be overly quick to take such actions, and if you do your actions are judged by those standards.
You are also correct that itis impossible for the two ideas of everyman's right to use versus our inherent right to keep and bear arms and the independance and self reliance that allows us in our own minds...I fear anyone or anything that would take my right and ability to enforce my access and exercise of all my natural rights from the ones codified into laws and constitutions and the ones that need not be written clearly out to exist. It is a strong belief for me that a disarmed nation is one step from enslavement; ultimate control by people who mean us no good; and it makes us a victim to any one with a gun... and there will always be guns.. I beleive in the right to hunt for food regardless of an open season by necessity; and that the gun is a tool; and the reason for a handgun is to have it accessible...as far as self defense against criminals and the shooting of other people .. that is only a small part of what the ownership and natural right to life and preservation of my own life and preservation my other natural rights --including the right to overthrow a corrupt government.. aand the duty to protect others and self is more than a right it is actually a duty... quite different..
I again apologize if this topic allowed my edges to bristle a bit.. I assure you I would second guess and be troubled by killing another human... and I would be too guilty to survive it if I felt I failed to protect my self and my family from great harm.. as to things... if they are stealing my car... I will not shoot them...it is only in the face of great bodily harm that I would justify using a gun and then i would try to avoid killing a person if at all possible..
if I see a nut job shooting kids in a school yard...I would not feel I had a right to try to protect the kids.. I would feel it is a duty and a right both... and I would not be able to live with my self if I had all my guns locked up and unaccessible when I have the right to have them accessaible and a duty to defend my self and others..
due to our media bias and likely your country's as well, you do not read about instances where guns in the hands of law abiding gun owning citizens stopped crimes in progress, deterred obviously pending crimes, and saved lives without killing anyone and you do not hear about when one is killed and it is justifiable heroic action involved...
Just as you were not surprised by the statements I and other made as they are typical gun righrts arguments... realize please that the arguments that access is dangerous and no guns no shootings and that the only reason to have a gun is for hunting etc etc are all the same arguments made over and over...
so we have such diverse cultural and moral compasses it is not easy to see the other side of the coin or the argument..
While I do not agree with some of the posts; I think also we should refrain from judging labelling and name calling based on statements that are just that ... words and quick responses...
I know you did not do that but some folks did and this is obviously a tender spot for a lot of folks...
I think that when you look at all the statements and read between the lines the clear and unclear the rash and the radical to the logical and calmly philosophic you will not need to take any one answer and dissect it.. I feel you are understanding our position and I know I am more understanding yours.
you see .. if it were my world.. we would all have lots more rights naturally recognized and you would be able to hunt on private land as well as public because the game would belong to the people, not the state not the government but the people...the rich could own other things but not the game and there could be no elite society that gets everything at the expense of everyone else..
so you and I could hunt, shoot, fish, camp, but not destroy... and you and I could decide to shoot any gun we wanted just because it is like deciding what to eat.. some folks do not eat meat on fridays... ok .. but if I want a burger I feel that is beyond what they or anyone can control for me.. it is that natural a thing to me and to many.. it is not about violence it is about safety; and independance and not having to rely on others for protection nor to rely on others in power to be good people.... it is basic to real freedom.. and comes with some problems, agreed...
Peace Love.. and good wishes to you my friend.. I lke the idea of being able to camp ... would like to do that on obama's white house lawn...
LOL
dk

[Skarek]

Wow, is this deja vu! I have been having this very discussion for the last couple of weeks.

Seems like we Swedes never give up trying to change your point of view on guns.

..."Everyman's right"...
Thats BS --why own property then. so others can drop buy and pick your apple tree, camp at your creek and watch you private business from a distance.

As the Germans misunderstand this right when they visit our country. So it seems you do.
You are not allowed to pick peoples apple trees, the rule only applies to wild fruit and berries. You are not allowed to enter peoples gardens. I see no wrong in camping in your creek. As long as I don't disturb you in your business, leave the area in the same way as it was when I arrived and don't destroy anything. And watching me from a distance is disturbing me, and not allowed (but I cant shoot you for it )

I lke the idea of being able to camp ... would like to do that on obama's white house lawn...

You would not be allowed to camp in Obamas garden either. I'm sorry. It falls under "Do not disturb". I think there are a recommendation on something like not closer than 200 m from someones house, and this is a recommendation, it might be longer depending on situation. An example was a guy who started a rafting service that started on his land and passed some other guys land. He had to stop as the court rules that it disturbed the other owner (as I think i lived quite close to the thing).

So all in all. We are allowed to access "wild" land, pick wild fruits, camp and use dead wood as long as we don't disturb the owner or the nature, do not destroy anything and leave the land in the same way as when we entered it (except for all the berries & mushrooms that we have gathered). We are not allowed to fish or hunt. But as I stated above, you might not understand this obvious right for me, in the same way that I have problems understanding your right to guns.

Anyway, good post. Interesting to see all the answers. This is a developing thread for my view on the matter of right to

[DuckHunt]

Skarek,

I can fully understand your point of view on some items. On some I agree. I do not see much reason for the general public to own a fully automatic firearm. The average person cannot own a fully automatic firearm in the USA. You must apply for and be granted special permits. Legal fully automatic firearms in the USA are not common.

Personally, I do not own a handgun. I have owned them before. I just could not find much use for them other than self defense. Even an average carbine rifle is much better for hunting than an excellent pistol. But, that is my choice. Others exercise their freedom to own a handgun and I stand by their rights.

I think you my be missing one major point. I did not buy a single gun in my safe for self defense or personal protection. I am a hunter. I hunt. I purchased each of my guns for the same reason I purchased my crossbow. To provide a tool I could use to pursue the game of my choice.

Since my guns were purchased with hunting in mind, it would be a very bad day for any intruder that chose to break into my home. I would never pull the trigger on an intruder to scare them away. I would never fire to wound. Within the walls of my house, the only force I would ever employ with a gun is deadly force.

DuckHunt

[Skarek]

As I stated in my post the police might have fired 15 shots in the last 10 years...

Make that +1, they just shot a 16 year old boy in the leg. The threatened them with something that turned out to be a soft air gun. How stupid are you when you threaten someone with a real gun, that is authorized to use it, with a non real gun...

[Grizzly Adam]

How stupid are you when you threaten someone with a real gun, that is authorized to use it, with a non real gun ...

Guess that boy wasn't the "sharpest knife in the rack", huh?

At least he survived his stupidity.