Matrix 380 arrows

[Holston]

I've decided that the 380 is a keeper, now it's time to order some more arrows.

Being new to the xbow game, not sure about where to start.

So what's considered the best, and where are yall getting them?

Any advice is appreciated.

[hotdog]

I like the Black Eagle Excutioners, and they shot great from my Matrix380. I got Dave at Wyvern Creations to custom make them for me since I shoot 175 gr. Slick Trick broad heads. Here is a link to his site, http://www.wyverncreations.com just tell him what kind of broad head you are using, and he'll fix you up with some great arrows at a reasonable price.

[Holston]

Thanks for the replies.

I'll probably be going with Slick Trick heads, as I've used them for several years in my compound with no complaints. Just gotta decide on what weight.

Are there any advantages to a heavy head, and light insert...vs the opposite?

I've tried to work it out in my head, and can't think of any difference it would make in a hunting situation, but I may be missing something.

Shooting stock Diablos and 150 gr boltcutters right now. Accurate enough, but I think I could do better. It took me several years to find the perfect set-up for my compound, but with a 76lb, 32" draw, there wasn't a lot of info out there. I'm guess since these crossbows are all pretty similar, I can get at least close by recommendations here.

I've got to grab a Rhinehart soon, I destroyed my block last night.

[xcaliber]

I like the Zombie Slayers for the 25% stiffer spine @ only.1 grain per inch more weight than Executioners. Both are great, but Zombies are all i use on all of my bows!

[amythntr]

I like the Zombie Slayers for the 25% stiffer spine @ only.1 grain per inch more weight than Executioners. Both are great, but Zombies are all i use on all of my bows!

X2...on the 18" Zombie Slayers.

I shoot custom arrows I made with:
-Lumenoks,
-6" Wrap,
2" Blazers,
92 grain brass inserts,
100 grain Spitfire,
415g

Anthony

[galamb]

When trying to decide between heavier/lighter inserts with heavier/lighter broadheads you have to decide for yourself what is more important.

Slug force (the momentum to penetrate) or raw speed. The lighter arrow will give you raw speed and "at impact" more kinetic energy, but that is not necessarily the "holy grail" that advertising would have you believe.

Here is a bit from Dr. Ashby who studied arrow penetration for decades talking about speed vs weight of an arrow (the whole highly technical piece can be found at http://www.tradgang.com/ashby/Momentum% ... ergy%20and
%20Arrow%20Penetration.htm for any interested.

Anyhow:

"It is common for proponents of light and fast arrows to counter that the faster arrow will have traveled a greater distance through the tissues in the same time period than will the heavier, and slower, arrow. This would be valid were it not for the nature of resistance forces.

As the arrow’s velocity is increased the resistance does not increase equivalently. The resistance increases exponentially. The resistance of a medium to penetration is reliant on the square of the object’s velocity (assuming objects of a given coefficient of drag; i.e., using arrows with the same external profile, material and finish). In other words, if the arrow’s impact velocity doubles, the resistance increases by a factor of four. If the impact velocity quadruples, the resistance to penetration increases 16 times!

The effect of exponentially increasing resistance is easy to experience. Try holding a hand out the window of the car, while the car is going at a velocity of 30 miles per hour (which is only 44 feet per second), and feel the air’s resistance against your hand. The resistance is very slight. Now accelerate to 60 miles per hour (a mere 88 feet per second). The velocity has only gone up by a factor of two, but the air’s resistance to your hand passing through it is now four times greater."

Discussing the difference between a 390 grain arrow and a 700 grain arrow (from traditional/compound bows)

"Lets also assume these two arrows are of same materials, have equal physical external dimensions (easily achievable), and both have perfect flight characteristics. The tissue’s resistance increase is totally dependant upon the velocity of the arrow.

The lighter arrow has 10.22 percent more disposable net force (and 123.2 percent more kinetic energy) than the heavier arrow but, because of its higher velocity, it is met by four times the resistance to penetration. Which arrow will penetrate further in real tissues? Empirical evidence from the outcome studies provides an overwhelmingly definitive answer. Both the frequency and degree to which the heavier, slower, arrow out-penetrates the lighter one is of such a magnitude that it must be viewed as the norm."

Now, I'm not suggesting you shoot a 700 grain arrow, but you get the idea

(shoot "heavy" - if you want speed, drive fast out to your stand)

[Holston]

I understand the light vs heavy when it comes to total weight.

Just trying to figure if there's any advantage to a light head and heavy insert, vs heavy head and light insert.

[Kegbelly]

There are more choices in broadheads in 100 grains, not as many to choose from in higher weights. So if the broadhead you like is only available in 100 gr you would want to use a heavier insert with the lighter head. Heavier fixed-blades usually have larger blades and thus a larger cutting diameter, but the possibility of planing or broadhead steer also increases with blade size. Like a lot of things, it's a trade-off.

[884savage]

I shoot custom arrows I made with:
-Lumenoks,
-6" Wrap,
2" Blazers,
92 grain brass inserts,
100 grain Spitfire,
415g

My setup is exactly the same except I shoot Rage heads and I don't have wraps. This last week I decided to switch things up for testing purposes, and 3 blade Muzzy heads and 2 blade Muzzy Phantoms both shot identically as long as I didn't change the weight of the heads.

[one shot scott]

Zombies

Big John is the go to arrow man, but I don't think hes taking orders at the moment.

Boo(don) is another great source for them.

[cevans]

When trying to decide between heavier/lighter inserts with heavier/lighter broadheads you have to decide for yourself what is more important.

Slug force (the momentum to penetrate) or raw speed. The lighter arrow will give you raw speed and "at impact" more kinetic energy, but that is not necessarily the "holy grail" that advertising would have you believe.

Here is a bit from Dr. Ashby who studied arrow penetration for decades talking about speed vs weight of an arrow (the whole highly technical piece can be found at http://www.tradgang.com/ashby/Momentum% ... ergy%20and
%20Arrow%20Penetration.htm for any interested.

Anyhow:

"It is common for proponents of light and fast arrows to counter that the faster arrow will have traveled a greater distance through the tissues in the same time period than will the heavier, and slower, arrow. This would be valid were it not for the nature of resistance forces.

As the arrow’s velocity is increased the resistance does not increase equivalently. The resistance increases exponentially. The resistance of a medium to penetration is reliant on the square of the object’s velocity (assuming objects of a given coefficient of drag; i.e., using arrows with the same external profile, material and finish). In other words, if the arrow’s impact velocity doubles, the resistance increases by a factor of four. If the impact velocity quadruples, the resistance to penetration increases 16 times!

The effect of exponentially increasing resistance is easy to experience. Try holding a hand out the window of the car, while the car is going at a velocity of 30 miles per hour (which is only 44 feet per second), and feel the air’s resistance against your hand. The resistance is very slight. Now accelerate to 60 miles per hour (a mere 88 feet per second). The velocity has only gone up by a factor of two, but the air’s resistance to your hand passing through it is now four times greater."

Discussing the difference between a 390 grain arrow and a 700 grain arrow (from traditional/compound bows)

"Lets also assume these two arrows are of same materials, have equal physical external dimensions (easily achievable), and both have perfect flight characteristics. The tissue’s resistance increase is totally dependant upon the velocity of the arrow.

The lighter arrow has 10.22 percent more disposable net force (and 123.2 percent more kinetic energy) than the heavier arrow but, because of its higher velocity, it is met by four times the resistance to penetration. Which arrow will penetrate further in real tissues? Empirical evidence from the outcome studies provides an overwhelmingly definitive answer. Both the frequency and degree to which the heavier, slower, arrow out-penetrates the lighter one is of such a magnitude that it must be viewed as the norm."

Now, I'm not suggesting you shoot a 700 grain arrow, but you get the idea

(shoot "heavy" - if you want speed, drive fast out to your stand)

Greaat article...and a heavier arrow is more quiet shooting out of the bow also.

[Boo]

Two recipes that worked really well with broadheads both using 18" BEA Zombies and fletched with Blazers using an Arizona EZ Fletch Bolt.
92 gr brass inserts, 100 gr Slick Trick Mag, plastic rear insert
80 br brass insert, 125 gr G5 Striker Mag, Luninoks
Both would group about 1.5" at 50 yards from my 405

[wildcatter]

When trying to decide between heavier/lighter inserts with heavier/lighter broadheads you have to decide for yourself what is more important.

Slug force (the momentum to penetrate) or raw speed. The lighter arrow will give you raw speed and "at impact" more kinetic energy, but that is not necessarily the "holy grail" that advertising would have you believe.

Here is a bit from Dr. Ashby who studied arrow penetration for decades talking about speed vs weight of an arrow (the whole highly technical piece can be found at http://www.tradgang.com/ashby/Momentum% ... ergy%20and
%20Arrow%20Penetration.htm for any interested.

Anyhow:

The lighter arrow has 10.22 percent more disposable net force (and 123.2 percent more kinetic energy) than the heavier arrow but, because of its higher velocity, it is met by four times the resistance to penetration. Which arrow will penetrate further in real tissues? Empirical evidence from the outcome studies provides an overwhelmingly definitive answer. Both the frequency and degree to which the heavier, slower, arrow out-penetrates the lighter one is of such a magnitude that it must be viewed as the norm."

Now, I'm not suggesting you shoot a 700 grain arrow, but you get the idea

(shoot "heavy" - if you want speed, drive fast out to your stand)

Greaat article...and a heavier arrow is more quiet shooting out of the bow also.

This is all good theory and believe me I shoot heavy 90% of the time. But out of any bow Vertical, recurve, compound, crossbow you name it, the same bow is obviously going to be slower with lighter arrows. But every single one of them for over 30 years of testing and building arrows the heavier UI made the slower the bow shot them and the higher the kenetic energy went.

Right now out of my 380 a 19" BEE w/112 insert and 100 grain head, I shoot 358 fps. this =118.0 K.E.

I also build an arrow using a 20" Parker Red Hot w/there heavy insert (I believe 60 grains?) but then I us a Carbon Express economy arrow cut to just over 17" and glue it inside the Red Hot, the econnomy arrow is the same O.D. as the Red Hot I.D. then finish with the Parker capture knock. This makes for a 460 grain arrow and the I use a VPA 175 grn. 3 blade fixed broadhead. All this gives me a total weight of 635 grains, it is deadly accurate and shoots 301 fps out of my 380 Lynx, the same bow as above and tested side by side. But, the slower heavier 635 grain arrow @ 301 fps, = 126.6 K.E. giving me 8.6 more in K.E.

This will hold true in any bow I have owned in my life, to many to list. But even a 10 weight increase in weight, will lower speed and increase K.E. even though this small change is insignificant it does exist. The Red Hot's compared to the BEE's though is quiet significant! As you stated there is also a gain in momentum which I don't know the formula for but the heavier slower arrow also carries more of. This is why the heavy arrow out penetrates the speedy one, I am a retiered Iron Worker and may not be real good at understanding the significance of a formula, but real life results are quite understandable. This penetration becomes very apearent when displayed on my Rhinehart Rhino Block,,, the bee's with the vpa's are stoped well short of the fletching's, where as the Red Hots 90% of the time will shoot clear through the 18" deep Rhino Block, and up to 4" out the back side usually less than 1" sticking through in a good solid part of the target.

[Limbs and Sticks]

When trying to decide between heavier/lighter inserts with heavier/lighter broadheads you have to decide for yourself what is more important.

Slug force (the momentum to penetrate) or raw speed. The lighter arrow will give you raw speed and "at impact" more kinetic energy, but that is not necessarily the "holy grail" that advertising would have you believe.

Here is a bit from Dr. Ashby who studied arrow penetration for decades talking about speed vs weight of an arrow (the whole highly technical piece can be found at http://www.tradgang.com/ashby/Momentum% ... ergy%20and
%20Arrow%20Penetration.htm for any interested.

Anyhow:

The lighter arrow has 10.22 percent more disposable net force (and 123.2 percent more kinetic energy) than the heavier arrow but, because of its higher velocity, it is met by four times the resistance to penetration. Which arrow will penetrate further in real tissues? Empirical evidence from the outcome studies provides an overwhelmingly definitive answer. Both the frequency and degree to which the heavier, slower, arrow out-penetrates the lighter one is of such a magnitude that it must be viewed as the norm."

Now, I'm not suggesting you shoot a 700 grain arrow, but you get the idea

(shoot "heavy" - if you want speed, drive fast out to your stand)

Greaat article...and a heavier arrow is more quiet shooting out of the bow also.

This is all good theory and believe me I shoot heavy 90% of the time. But out of any bow Vertical, recurve, compound, crossbow you name it, the same bow is obviously going to be slower with lighter arrows. But every single one of them for over 30 years of testing and building arrows the heavier UI made the slower the bow shot them and the higher the kenetic energy went.

Right now out of my 380 a 19" BEE w/112 insert and 100 grain head, I shoot 358 fps. this =118.0 K.E.

I also build an arrow using a 20" Parker Red Hot w/there heavy insert (I believe 60 grains?) but then I us a Carbon Express economy arrow cut to just over 17" and glue it inside the Red Hot, the econnomy arrow is the same O.D. as the Red Hot I.D. then finish with the Parker capture knock. This makes for a 460 grain arrow and the I use a VPA 175 grn. 3 blade fixed broadhead. All this gives me a total weight of 635 grains, it is deadly accurate and shoots 301 fps out of my 380 Lynx, the same bow as above and tested side by side. But, the slower heavier 635 grain arrow @ 301 fps, = 126.6 K.E. giving me 8.6 more in K.E.

This will hold true in any bow I have owned in my life, to many to list. But even a 10 weight increase in weight, will lower speed and increase K.E. even though this small change is insignificant it does exist. The Red Hot's compared to the BEE's though is quiet significant! As you stated there is also a gain in momentum which I don't know the formula for but the heavier slower arrow also carries more of. This is why the heavy arrow out penetrates the speedy one, I am a retiered Iron Worker and may not be real good at understanding the significance of a formula, but real life results are quite understandable. This penetration becomes very apearent when displayed on my Rhinehart Rhino Block,,, the bee's with the vpa's are stoped well short of the fletching's, where as the Red Hots 90% of the time will shoot clear through the 18" deep Rhino Block, and up to 4" out the back side usually less than 1" sticking through in a good solid part of the target.

My 410 Matrix has 138.65 ke with a 375gr arrow,to each their own I know what works for me and heavy ain't it, to me Ashby is like Randy Wakeman Never known any Major Company to endorse either of them, I could be wrong just I've never seen it, sure don't follow either.

Wes

[galamb]

" I know what works for me and heavy ain't it"

In what respect?

You can't get a good grouping?

Is there some other "measure" that is more important then proximity to the point of aim and penetration when talking about "hunting" situations.

Do you disagree that a heavier arrow shoots quieter, will be less effected by wind, will penetrate better, will retain more of it's energy on penetration?

Not trying to create an argument here at all, just interested in how you quantify your answer.

If you have found something that refutes this study I would like to try the method for myself.

I have found shooting heavier works for me, but I have a range and I have time and if there is a better/different way, I'm certainly interested in trying it for myself.