How far is too far?

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agingcrossbower
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Re: How far is too far?

Post by agingcrossbower »

This is why only in very exceptional cases can a stationary deer be hit where desired. Rarely is a deer predictably stationary unless it's just lowering its head to eat, or is standing staring at something or trying to be undetected(its on alert though), is asleep or dead
Even if I could shoot as good as you Sew I would pass a long range shot because of your above statement. A long range shot works much better on a Mule deer for sure.
SEW
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Re: How far is too far?

Post by SEW »

If a varmint Hunter wants a flatter trajectory, he/she can optimize a load or get a new rifle and, if a reloader, get a new set of dies, powders, cases, likely bullets, maybe primers, etc.
Optimizing a load often yields great benefits. Example: I'd like a 22-250 sporter but have a 223 sporter. By using the ballistically efficient 40NBT and a Quick Load/Quick Target for an optimized load, I'm shooting the 40 NBTs very accurately and fast (3,700'/sec).
We can do the same. Using absolutely no more foc than needed, no more fletching drag than needed SK200 from Southshore and in 4 degree offset rather than the more draggy helical, and an extremely low drag expandible broad head (170g FOC) along with flat plastic nocks and 26g AL inserts, with 18" Zombies, you can have an extremely hi BC arrow. Low drag, quiet in flight, deadly broad head, low drag, very quiet fletching, no more weight at with end of arrow than needed, what more can you want? Using such an arrow will make most xbows act like they're 30-40 '/sec faster than what many are getting with their arrow set ups. Needless extra fletching stabilization creates needless drag. More foc than needed causes the arrow to drop faster. Very low drag expandibles(FOC, Schwackers, others) require very little fletching stabilization.
Maybe just new arrows can help as much as a new crossbow.
A very fast xbow, the most aerodynamic arrow, good optics, lot of practice, who knows, maybe ethical max range might just increase.
Icing on the cake would be the warmth of a custom, wooden stock.
Last edited by SEW on Fri Nov 27, 2015 10:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
agingcrossbower
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Re: How far is too far?

Post by agingcrossbower »

Maybe just new arrows can help as much as a new crossbow.
A very fast xbow, the most aerodynamic arrow, good optics, lot of practice, who knows, maybe ethical max range might just increase.
Icing on the cake would be the warmth of a custom, wooden stock.

Well Steve, how can I argue with that logic?? :lol: :lol: :lol:
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nchunterkw
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Re: How far is too far?

Post by nchunterkw »

A couple of observations.....
1) I agree that energy loss is not really an issue - but the earlier calculations I don't think are exactly correct as the speed loss is exponential rather than linear - but this is probably a good enough approximation for the purpose of "do I have enough energy to kill a deer at X range"

2) The idea of the low FOC low drag arrow is good but by doing all those things to give it a flatter trajectory you also lighten the arrow. And the point is to extend range - where you will lose energy. Using a large cut mechanical in this situation may not be the best option as you need more energy to open blades etc. So I think there is a tradeoff - and I think that will be very dependent on which bow you are using - 405 being the top of the line.

3) Most of this stuff only applies to whitetails. Mule deer, elk, moose don't have the same reflexes so longer ranges don't pose the same risk of animal movement.


Question:
Would a deer have less of a reaction to my shot noise at 75yds, versus 30yds? I think yes...at 30yds and in we are in their "freak out" space. Noise etc while this close to a deer causes them to come unglued. They don't try to figure out what happened, they just try to get away from whatever they heard. But at 75...would a noise simply cause them to look in that direction but not necessarily move? I doubt I'll ever try to field data on this scenario, but since we are just discussing stuff..........
Keith
Stand by the roads and look, and ask for the ancient paths; where the good way is,
and walk in it and find rest for your souls. - Jer 6:16

Micro 335 & 355
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agingcrossbower
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Re: How far is too far?

Post by agingcrossbower »

nchunterkw wrote:A couple of observations.....
1) I agree that energy loss is not really an issue - but the earlier calculations I don't think are exactly correct as the speed loss is exponential rather than linear - but this is probably a good enough approximation for the purpose of "do I have enough energy to kill a deer at X range"

2) The idea of the low FOC low drag arrow is good but by doing all those things to give it a flatter trajectory you also lighten the arrow. And the point is to extend range - where you will lose energy. Using a large cut mechanical in this situation may not be the best option as you need more energy to open blades etc. So I think there is a tradeoff - and I think that will be very dependent on which bow you are using - 405 being the top of the line.

3) Most of this stuff only applies to whitetails. Mule deer, elk, moose don't have the same reflexes so longer ranges don't pose the same risk of animal movement.


Question:
Would a deer have less of a reaction to my shot noise at 75yds, versus 30yds? I think yes...at 30yds and in we are in their "freak out" space. Noise etc while this close to a deer causes them to come unglued. They don't try to figure out what happened, they just try to get away from whatever they heard. But at 75...would a noise simply cause them to look in that direction but not necessarily move? I doubt I'll ever try to field data on this scenario, but since we are just discussing stuff..........
What keeps the deer standing still until the arrow gets there at those long distances? All it takes is one step.
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nchunterkw
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Re: How far is too far?

Post by nchunterkw »

I understand. The question is what will it do at the shot. At 20 or 30 yds videos show that deer immediately try to run. But what about at 75yds. Would it try to run or simply look up? That would be enough delay for the arrow to get there. Again, just a discussion. Interested in some thoughts. Not advocating taking shots at 75yds.
Keith
Stand by the roads and look, and ask for the ancient paths; where the good way is,
and walk in it and find rest for your souls. - Jer 6:16

Micro 335 & 355
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one shot scott
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Re: How far is too far?

Post by one shot scott »

go too far

to do more than is acceptable: I didn't mind at first, but now you've gone too far. If you go too far, I'll slap you.

See also: far, go, too

How far is up to the one holding the bow and things such as conscience plays a role. For some, going too far is lacing up the boots and going afield in search of game. For others there is no such thing.
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nchunterkw
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Re: How far is too far?

Post by nchunterkw »

one shot scott wrote:go too far

to do more than is acceptable: I didn't mind at first, but now you've gone too far. If you go too far, I'll slap you.

See also: far, go, too

How far is up to the one holding the bow and things such as conscience plays a role. For some, going too far is lacing up the boots and going afield in search of game. For others there is no such thing.
This is a simple discussion. You have the option to simply stay out of it if you have nothing to contribute. You are going to slap me ??!! What the heck kind of post is that?

Watch this video.....I found the answer to my question.
http://www.bowhunter.com/tv/moment-trut ... ction-time

know-it-all
noun, informal

a person who behaves as if they know everything.
Keith
Stand by the roads and look, and ask for the ancient paths; where the good way is,
and walk in it and find rest for your souls. - Jer 6:16

Micro 335 & 355
deerboyarchery.wixsite.com/trinitystrings
[email protected]
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bob1961
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Re: How far is too far?

Post by bob1961 »

after building arrows I knew could be put in the bull at 50 yards every time with my slick tricks, is where my comfort range ends....I have taken one deer at 49/50 yards, but that deer was totally unaware I was even in the woods that day....after the arrow passed through her and stopped 25 yards behind her in an old downed log, she just kept feeding as nothing happened....15 seconds later she did the drunken walk and just fell over dead, all within 20 feet where she was standing when hit....would I give a bleat or a grunt to stop a deer from walking then shoot at 50 yards, hell no....
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one shot scott
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Re: How far is too far?

Post by one shot scott »

nchunterkw wrote:
one shot scott wrote:go too far

to do more than is acceptable: I didn't mind at first, but now you've gone too far. If you go too far, I'll slap you.

See also: far, go, too

How far is up to the one holding the bow and things such as conscience plays a role. For some, going too far is lacing up the boots and going afield in search of game. For others there is no such thing.
This is a simple discussion. You have the option to simply stay out of it if you have nothing to contribute. You are going to slap me ??!! What the heck kind of post is that?

Watch this video.....I found the answer to my question.
http://www.bowhunter.com/tv/moment-trut ... ction-time

know-it-all
noun, informal

a person who behaves as if they know everything.
Wow. Not sure where your getting that. . i meant nothing personal. Was trying to say:I personally think a good hunter can reach out further by reading conditions and knowing their limitations. crappy hunter cant shoot 20y.

Will try to be more obvious next time
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one shot scott
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Re: How far is too far?

Post by one shot scott »

.............nevermind
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nchunterkw
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Re: How far is too far?

Post by nchunterkw »

Fair enough. Felt personal to me but apology accepted. I apologize as well I guess it hit a nerve. No hard feelings.
Keith
Stand by the roads and look, and ask for the ancient paths; where the good way is,
and walk in it and find rest for your souls. - Jer 6:16

Micro 335 & 355
deerboyarchery.wixsite.com/trinitystrings
[email protected]
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one shot scott
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Re: How far is too far?

Post by one shot scott »

Nope, no hard feelings. I have to try to be more clear. I think its often a problem with my posts.

with the dictionary quote I was just trying to illustrate that "how far" is really a personal limitation. One that cannot be decided for you.
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agingcrossbower
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Re: How far is too far?

Post by agingcrossbower »

Interesting video NC. Thanks. :D
SEW
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Re: How far is too far?

Post by SEW »

nchunterkw wrote:A couple of observations.....
1) I agree that energy loss is not really an issue - but the earlier calculations I don't think are exactly correct as the speed loss is exponential rather than linear - but this is probably a good enough approximation for the purpose of "do I have enough energy to kill a deer at X range"

2) The idea of the low FOC low drag arrow is good but by doing all those things to give it a flatter trajectory you also lighten the arrow. And the point is to extend range - where you will lose energy. Using a large cut mechanical in this situation may not be the best option as you need more energy to open blades etc. So I think there is a tradeoff - and I think that will be very dependent on which bow you are using - 405 being the top of the line.

3) Most of this stuff only applies to whitetails. Mule deer, elk, moose don't have the same reflexes so longer ranges don't pose the same risk of animal movement.


Question:
Would a deer have less of a reaction to my shot noise at 75yds, versus 30yds? I think yes...at 30yds and in we are in their "freak out" space. Noise etc while this close to a deer causes them to come unglued. They don't try to figure out what happened, they just try to get away from whatever they heard. But at 75...would a noise simply cause them to look in that direction but not necessarily move? I doubt I'll ever try to field data on this scenario, but since we are just discussing stuff..........
Some thoughts:
1) arrow velocity loss is essentially linear but actually less velocity is lost each 10 yds. Less speed = less drag yielding less speed loss.
2) due to the acceleration of gravity having the 1/2 T squared function, trajectory becomes asymptotic . Incidentally, this will eventually even further decrease the speed loss of the arrow,
3) w/o apology, I've shot a # of deer over 50 and yes, over 60 yds with arrows, v and xbow launched. No losses (yet). I'd never shoot at an alert deer @ 30 yds staring at me. However, they always freeze at the sound of 50 or more yards. This is one time I don't hesitate to shoot. They freeze until the arrow goes thru. The distant sound sparks their interest. The close sound scares them. They will often try to duck a noisy, incoming arrow. I don't know how they would react to a noisy arrow shot from a distance such as 50+ yards. I design my fletching, broadhead to be a quiet as possible . I previously gave my arrow design which is to be very aerodynamically efficient which results in a very quiet arrow also.
4) at 100 yds I still have >100 ft lbs of energy with my 405. Even a 355 or 380 will have well over 50 ft-lbs.
Hope this helps somebody. I'm flame proof.
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