Let's get a good discussion going here...
I'm in a discusion with some other bowhunters about shots taken at deer that appear to be high lung shots and the deer are not recovered.. Some of the folks say that they miss the lungs and the spine by passing underneath the spine and above the lungs. I say that can't happen. They say there is a "no man's land" or a void there. I know some vets and they say no there isn't. The lungs wouldn't work if there was.
I'm not convinced that one can put an arrow between the top of the lungs and the spine.. Especially from an elevated position.. A deer close in and/or from a good height , such 20 feet are better, there is no way anyone could thread the needle if there even was such a thing as a "no man's land".
The exit hole would have to be 4 - 5 inches lower than the entrance hole. No way is that "no man's land" (if it existed) 4 - 5 inches wide.
My firm belief is that these so called "no man's land" shots are actually shots above the spinal cord. A loin shot if you will. They will bleed pretty good for a hundred yards or so and then peter out. Meat hits are like that unless the deer is pushed.
OR
They only get one lung from which a deer can and do recover.
Here are some more examples..
Here is my idea of a "no man's land" shot..above the spine...
http://home.mn.rr.com/deerfever/Deer_Anatomy.html
Other interesting pictures and drawings..
http://home.mn.rr.com/deerfever/Anatomy.html
http://www.science-art.com/gallery/...72003234051.jpg
http://www.whitetails.com/deer-organs0.jpg
http://www.tnoutdoorsmen.com/anatomy.gif
http://www.tnoutdoorsmen.com/killzone.htm
"No Man's Land" Shots...
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Woody Williams
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"No Man's Land" Shots...
Woody Williams
We have met the enemy and he is us - Pogo Possum
Hunting in Indiana at [size=84][color=Red][b][url=http://huntingindiana.proboards52.com]HUNT-INDIANA[/url][/b][/color][/size]
We have met the enemy and he is us - Pogo Possum
Hunting in Indiana at [size=84][color=Red][b][url=http://huntingindiana.proboards52.com]HUNT-INDIANA[/url][/b][/color][/size]
Woody,
I helped trail a deer that were shot high from close range and an elevated position last winter. He traveled about 4-500 yards and bedded and left a good bit of blood. He then got up and went another 100 yards and bedded again with very little blood loss. He then got on a well used deer trail and we lost his trail. No more blood, and no dead deer to be found. I went back several times and never found any carcass, or signs of predators or scavengers finding him, so I'd bet he recovered. After questioning the young man that made the shot, I believe it was indeed a loin shot. I'd say most hits like that never come close to the lungs. That's one thing that has me worried with this year's stand location at my feeder. It's too close to suit me. It would be an 8 or 10 yard shot from 12' up, and that's not much room for error to get both lungs. I plan to pick a spot right behind the shoulder and go for a hit about 1/3 of the way down on his (or her
) body. Hopefully I'll get a shot at one coming in at a little more distance and not have to chance one too close!
Oh, and from an elevated position I think if you shoot under the spine you're going to get at least one lung.
I helped trail a deer that were shot high from close range and an elevated position last winter. He traveled about 4-500 yards and bedded and left a good bit of blood. He then got up and went another 100 yards and bedded again with very little blood loss. He then got on a well used deer trail and we lost his trail. No more blood, and no dead deer to be found. I went back several times and never found any carcass, or signs of predators or scavengers finding him, so I'd bet he recovered. After questioning the young man that made the shot, I believe it was indeed a loin shot. I'd say most hits like that never come close to the lungs. That's one thing that has me worried with this year's stand location at my feeder. It's too close to suit me. It would be an 8 or 10 yard shot from 12' up, and that's not much room for error to get both lungs. I plan to pick a spot right behind the shoulder and go for a hit about 1/3 of the way down on his (or her
) body. Hopefully I'll get a shot at one coming in at a little more distance and not have to chance one too close!Oh, and from an elevated position I think if you shoot under the spine you're going to get at least one lung.
wabi
Woody, I believe most people who claim there is a void above the lungs and below the spine really do not have the correct vision of where the spine acually is.
As the photos you posted show , the spine acually is deeper into the body than most people realize.
If your arrow acually passes below the spine, within the front half of the ribcage at a reasonable angle you will take at least one lung.
The hits above the spine only stand a small chance of taking out arteries that run the length of the deers body.
Bottom line..... shoot at the exit hole you want...execute the shot well and hope the intended target does not move till its tooooooo LATE
Mark
As the photos you posted show , the spine acually is deeper into the body than most people realize.
If your arrow acually passes below the spine, within the front half of the ribcage at a reasonable angle you will take at least one lung.
The hits above the spine only stand a small chance of taking out arteries that run the length of the deers body.
Bottom line..... shoot at the exit hole you want...execute the shot well and hope the intended target does not move till its tooooooo LATE
Mark
Exomag ,Exocet,Micro 335
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Shoot a big one, Let the grunts walk
Scorpyd Ventilator
Gold tip laser bolts, Zombie Slayers,Spynal Tapp
Slick Trick, Rage, Magnus bullhead
Danny Miller Strings
Shoot a big one, Let the grunts walk
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Guest
Woody,
I'm no expert on deer anatomy, but I was a Hospital Corpsman in the Navy during the Viet Nam war, and was a member of a surgical team in that conflict. So I have seen many similar wounds on humans. The anatomy is somewhat different, but basically the same. I was also a Police officer in a metropolitan area for 22 years and saw even more injuries there and witnessed several autopsies. It is surprising to see how long a person can survive a thoracic wound and how much they can do even with severe trauma. I would agree that there is no such thing as no mans land in that area. But I would also contend that there could be a high lung hit that would allow a deer to travel a long way without leaving much blood, and perhaps survive for a long time, maybe even recover.
The lungs are completely enclosed in a tough membrane called the Pleura. The lower end of the Pleura is the diaphram which is a muscle that draws air into the lungs by creating a negative pressure. If the diaphram or the Pleura are torn, it then allows a positive pressure to fill the pleura. This is called a neumo-thorax, and can paritally or completely collapse one or both of the lungs. This tissue can and does heal and it is possible for the lung to reinflate depending on the size and location of the wound. However, a hole the size that comes from a broadhead through one or more lobes of the lungs are devistating injuries. There is not only heavy blood loss, but that will also tear the pleura and cause bleeding into the lungs themselves, stopping the lungs from being able to oxygenate the blood and remove CO2.
If I read Carl's comment correctly he thought that the first arrow hit the aorta. Not possible. The aorta is located inside the thorax,(that is under the spine) within the chest cavity. A torn aorta would result in total exsanguination (loss of blood) in seconds rather than minutes as the aorta is the largest blood vessel in the body and comes directly off of the heart's left atrium. Blood from an aorta lacaration gushes like a firehose.
I've rambled enough and probably just confused the issue. A lung hit is still the one to aim for. It is the most consistantly lethal shot you can take.
I'm no expert on deer anatomy, but I was a Hospital Corpsman in the Navy during the Viet Nam war, and was a member of a surgical team in that conflict. So I have seen many similar wounds on humans. The anatomy is somewhat different, but basically the same. I was also a Police officer in a metropolitan area for 22 years and saw even more injuries there and witnessed several autopsies. It is surprising to see how long a person can survive a thoracic wound and how much they can do even with severe trauma. I would agree that there is no such thing as no mans land in that area. But I would also contend that there could be a high lung hit that would allow a deer to travel a long way without leaving much blood, and perhaps survive for a long time, maybe even recover.
The lungs are completely enclosed in a tough membrane called the Pleura. The lower end of the Pleura is the diaphram which is a muscle that draws air into the lungs by creating a negative pressure. If the diaphram or the Pleura are torn, it then allows a positive pressure to fill the pleura. This is called a neumo-thorax, and can paritally or completely collapse one or both of the lungs. This tissue can and does heal and it is possible for the lung to reinflate depending on the size and location of the wound. However, a hole the size that comes from a broadhead through one or more lobes of the lungs are devistating injuries. There is not only heavy blood loss, but that will also tear the pleura and cause bleeding into the lungs themselves, stopping the lungs from being able to oxygenate the blood and remove CO2.
If I read Carl's comment correctly he thought that the first arrow hit the aorta. Not possible. The aorta is located inside the thorax,(that is under the spine) within the chest cavity. A torn aorta would result in total exsanguination (loss of blood) in seconds rather than minutes as the aorta is the largest blood vessel in the body and comes directly off of the heart's left atrium. Blood from an aorta lacaration gushes like a firehose.
I've rambled enough and probably just confused the issue. A lung hit is still the one to aim for. It is the most consistantly lethal shot you can take.
QUANDO OMNI FLUNKUS MORITATI (When all else fails, Play dead)
Genesis 27:3
Genesis 27:3
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Vince (not logged in)
Years ago, i enrolled in the Ontario Bow Hunting Safety Course.
It was anticipated that every Ontario bowhunter would eventually have to complete this course in order to bowhunt.
In the end, the course got turfed.
This was a 'hands-on' course covering content/demonstration on hunting ethics, safety, tree stands, anatomy, blood trailing etc. It placed the highest importance on Shot Placement.
My point, it was drilled into our minds that correct SHOT Placement has more to do with the path taken by an arrow/bolt as it travels through the body rather than the actual point of aim/entry hole.
Important as it is to aim at a 'single' hair on the deer, in archery, more importance was to given to the 'other' and 'unseen' offside of the deer....where the arrow/bolt exit's (OR DOESN'T) the animal's body.
Understanding tree stand height's and the angle of travel during a downward/quartering away or level/broadside has different effect's on the 'other' side relative to what we see at the point of entry.
In the end, it determines many thing's on the path of recovering the deer.
Food for thought
It was anticipated that every Ontario bowhunter would eventually have to complete this course in order to bowhunt.
In the end, the course got turfed.
This was a 'hands-on' course covering content/demonstration on hunting ethics, safety, tree stands, anatomy, blood trailing etc. It placed the highest importance on Shot Placement.
My point, it was drilled into our minds that correct SHOT Placement has more to do with the path taken by an arrow/bolt as it travels through the body rather than the actual point of aim/entry hole.
Important as it is to aim at a 'single' hair on the deer, in archery, more importance was to given to the 'other' and 'unseen' offside of the deer....where the arrow/bolt exit's (OR DOESN'T) the animal's body.
Understanding tree stand height's and the angle of travel during a downward/quartering away or level/broadside has different effect's on the 'other' side relative to what we see at the point of entry.
In the end, it determines many thing's on the path of recovering the deer.
Food for thought
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Woody Williams
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Newbi
I REALLYappreciate your facts. Coming from a professional it adds more weight to the arguement.
Thanks..
I REALLYappreciate your facts. Coming from a professional it adds more weight to the arguement.
Thanks..
Woody Williams
We have met the enemy and he is us - Pogo Possum
Hunting in Indiana at [size=84][color=Red][b][url=http://huntingindiana.proboards52.com]HUNT-INDIANA[/url][/b][/color][/size]
We have met the enemy and he is us - Pogo Possum
Hunting in Indiana at [size=84][color=Red][b][url=http://huntingindiana.proboards52.com]HUNT-INDIANA[/url][/b][/color][/size]
good info for sure gents..
I know from studing the vitals from different angles that an elevated shot from above( off the ground in a tree, and the higher or more of an angle the better) gives you a larger bullseye. It gives a guy more to shoot at or lets say a larger view of the vitals to hit. and for what its worth your trajectory is better..
Its like this think anatomy of a deer viewed from the top offers a larger picture of the vitals vs a side view.......in saying that
the best thing to remember is (like Mark the great white bear killer said) whatever your position is up or down quartered away or not--- think exit hole and shoot for that result-- vs-- entrance...
I know from studing the vitals from different angles that an elevated shot from above( off the ground in a tree, and the higher or more of an angle the better) gives you a larger bullseye. It gives a guy more to shoot at or lets say a larger view of the vitals to hit. and for what its worth your trajectory is better..
Its like this think anatomy of a deer viewed from the top offers a larger picture of the vitals vs a side view.......in saying that
the best thing to remember is (like Mark the great white bear killer said
) whatever your position is up or down quartered away or not--- think exit hole and shoot for that result-- vs-- entrance...Dedicated.... ta all the sweet Bucks yet ta die!
I'm no Doctor, but I will agree with Newbi. I always aim for the lung area, in particular the lower half. If shot in the very top part of the lungs, a deer can travel a long ways before expiring. Our land is about 1.5 miles from the nearest road (highway) throughout the winter and spring I find at least a half dozen dead deer. I'm sure some are hit in the top part of the lungs and expire there. No sooner they bed down, and there's coyotes all over them.
Woody!! Your last link or picture on your first thread, everytime you touch its tail, it salutes you. Pretty funny, (turn up your volume).
Grey Owl
Woody!! Your last link or picture on your first thread, everytime you touch its tail, it salutes you. Pretty funny, (turn up your volume).
Grey Owl
There is a lot of conversation here about the angle of shot from a tree stand. As many of us hunt from trees it is vitally important to learn the trajectory of the arrow from a high angle. However if you look at the first photo in Woody's post (the one that started this conversation) you will note that this shot was taken from the ground. Either that, or the deer was lying down on it's side when the shot was taken. That first shot was too high to hit any vitals. The second (fatal) shot was right where is should be--X ring- center mass-- boiler room.
The idea of shooting with the exit hole in mind is correct. If you can visualize the path of the projectile, you will be able to visualize what organs are being affected. Both lungs is your goal. From a high angle, a double lung shot becomes much more difficult because the angle is more acute, and the lungs don't line up as well. From a very high angle, you may only be able to penetrate one lung, possibly a nick on the other, possible a complete miss on the second lung. It's trickier from on high.
The idea of shooting with the exit hole in mind is correct. If you can visualize the path of the projectile, you will be able to visualize what organs are being affected. Both lungs is your goal. From a high angle, a double lung shot becomes much more difficult because the angle is more acute, and the lungs don't line up as well. From a very high angle, you may only be able to penetrate one lung, possibly a nick on the other, possible a complete miss on the second lung. It's trickier from on high.
QUANDO OMNI FLUNKUS MORITATI (When all else fails, Play dead)
Genesis 27:3
Genesis 27:3
NEWBI says----Both lungs is your goal. From a high angle, a double lung shot becomes much more difficult because the angle is more acute, and the lungs don't line up as well. From a very high angle, you may only be able to penetrate one lung, possibly a nick on the other, possible a complete miss on the second lung. It's trickier from on high.
From the ground you must hope and pray the deer comes close enough without seeing you. then your movement or just presence may clue them in. Then you have to hope your range is right. Its hard to put the range finder on them when your wanting to double check.. then you must zero in on the center double lung shot...
Its not a perfect world-----If you had your pick I guess you would double lung one everytime.both lungs are my goal when IM stalking, It will stop em quick..but its not the best way to take a deer. The percentages are less than that of deer harvested from on high ...
From upon High you have a bigger ZONE--Its easier to get a kill shot off from on high. It offers you a better angle at the vitals without a doubt...your trajectory is flatter and you can count on a more flat shot which adds up to accuracy...and I for one can judge distance better from on high..and from on high you can see them run off and where there running to better--you may not get both lungs but you'll get one or the other and most likely vital arteries and heart and liver and so on--- its gonna bleed like a stuck hog. and if I just get one lung I can count on the liver and arteries to fill the other as the deer runs in a panic away. If I hit his heart he's done..If I get a liver shot Its damn sure gonna get other vitals..Im happy to center punch the beast. In doing so IM sure I will get certain vitals that will contribute to a downed deer real soon...the nature of the beast is to run and if we stick em right they bleed -I count on 2 big gashes that tend to drain a deer--then we track--then we sack--
Time for some tenderloin fried potatoes and a tall glass of tea..
From the ground you must hope and pray the deer comes close enough without seeing you. then your movement or just presence may clue them in. Then you have to hope your range is right. Its hard to put the range finder on them when your wanting to double check.. then you must zero in on the center double lung shot...
Its not a perfect world-----If you had your pick I guess you would double lung one everytime.both lungs are my goal when IM stalking, It will stop em quick..but its not the best way to take a deer. The percentages are less than that of deer harvested from on high ...
From upon High you have a bigger ZONE--Its easier to get a kill shot off from on high. It offers you a better angle at the vitals without a doubt...your trajectory is flatter and you can count on a more flat shot which adds up to accuracy...and I for one can judge distance better from on high..and from on high you can see them run off and where there running to better--you may not get both lungs but you'll get one or the other and most likely vital arteries and heart and liver and so on--- its gonna bleed like a stuck hog. and if I just get one lung I can count on the liver and arteries to fill the other as the deer runs in a panic away. If I hit his heart he's done..If I get a liver shot Its damn sure gonna get other vitals..Im happy to center punch the beast. In doing so IM sure I will get certain vitals that will contribute to a downed deer real soon...the nature of the beast is to run and if we stick em right they bleed -I count on 2 big gashes that tend to drain a deer--then we track--then we sack--
Time for some tenderloin fried potatoes and a tall glass of tea..
Last edited by Hoss on Thu Jul 28, 2005 9:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
Dedicated.... ta all the sweet Bucks yet ta die!
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Woody Williams
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pic
Well the old story a picture is worth a thousand words. Here is a pic of a small buck which my friends yound son shot with his 243 rifle last fall with me sitting beside him on the ground. The buck was a first year fawn then. The bullet went through both sides in the area you are talking about and left the scares you see on his side. I saw the little guy in late archery season several times but could not get a shot and was surpised that he lived when I started getting his picture his summer on the trail cams. I also watched a friend put a arrow through the same spot on a nice 8pt several years ago and then the buck turned to run you could see the arrow sticking out and then the arrow fell to the ground when he was running. We could not find the deer and wrote him off as dead. I killed him the next season he was a 13pt then and had the scares on both sides from the shot also. Both of these shots were at ground level out of blinds so the arrow and bullet went straight through. I think if you had been in a tree one lung would have been hit do to the shot angle. 
I think the most common loss is from a loin shot. Too high to get anything but muscle. From an elevated stand I usually try to hit high in the near-side lung (aim about 1/2 way up or slightly higher on the deer's body). From and elevated stand it would be very difficult, if not impossible, to get an arrow through between the spine or lungs, but hitting the top of one lung probably wouldn't be fatal if the deer was in good shape & healthy. A loin shot can look like a good hit at first from the the blood trail, but usually isn't to serious an injury. I think most people (myself included) tend to shoot high from a tree stand if they don't take their time and think shot placement through carefully.
wabi