Need help for daughter. UPDATED

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janesy
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Re: Need help for daughter.

Post by janesy »

AJ01 wrote:
Tue Dec 22, 2020 9:02 am
Okay...this is really a "loaded question". No pun intended! Okay, maybe just a little. :lol:

Sorry, but I would NOT buy her a "30-30" for her first rifle. I know they have killed a million deer since coming out, but, let me explain.
She's 5'5"...stock design has a lot to do with "felt recoil". And let's face it, the stock design leaves a little to be desired on 99% of all lever guns.
In my humble opinion, it's not a good choice for a novice hunter. :eusa-snooty:

If I had to pick a single round for a novice hunter, I would take either the 7mm-08, or the .260 Remington. Either round will kill anything in the lower 48. True, might be a little on the light side for Elk or Moose. But in a pinch, it would do the job with the right bullet.
Rifle would be a standard bolt action made by anyone and it would be topped with a piece of good quality glass. If needed the stock could be "cut down" to fit the length of pull needed to properly fit the shooter.
Sure you can cut down the stock on a "30-30" but that only succeeds in increasing the amount of "felt recoil" to the shooter. :eusa-doh:
Stock design goes a long way in making an accurate shooter out of someone. Proper eye relief with the scope. Proper and consistent check weld every time you plant you face to the stock. Bolt guns just make sense.
Ever see a National Match winner shooting a lever gun?? :eusa-naughty:

And like Chris said...get her a 308 Short as her crossbow. Can find one of those, then a GRZ!!

And lastly....as we ALL know, opinions are like another part of one's anatomy. Everyone has one. :lol: :lol:

AJ
I'd second the 7mm-08. That's what I picked up for my Daughter, her birthday is coming up in 14 more years. I would consider a model 7 or my friend just picked up a Ruger compact that feels great but with enough weight to keep it under control.

But more importantly, if you reload, get familiar with reduced loads with H4895 and you will have a very efficient and pleasant rifle to shoot.
My friend does not like recoil, so I do intend to load him some reduced loads for the 7mm-08 before next November.
Last edited by janesy on Thu Dec 24, 2020 5:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Need help for daughter.

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I vote for your exo! Always pick something else later
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Re: Need help for daughter.

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If you go with a Marlin 30-30, goodluck. I can't find any down here. Guess I'll have to wait for Ruger to start producing them. Also, no complaints with my Grizzly.
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Re: Need help for daughter.

Post by Driftless hunter »

Since I am still shopping for my first crossbow, I will leave that topic to the experts here.

I shot my first buck with a 20 gauge Sears Ted Williams pump shotgun that my dad bought used for $55. I don't know if we were poor back then or what? The stock was even broken (glued & nailed back together). I dropped a nice 10 pointer in its track at 75 yards with that gun. I was 12 at the time. I waited along the road for my grandpa to come by with his milk truck to help me field dress & move the buck. This was long before cell phones. The game warden who registered the deer @ the ranger station told me I would be spoiled by it. He was sort of right. It took me 40 years later to top that buck in 2015 with my G5 Prime compound bow.

The funny part of this story - I also won a big buck contest with that buck. My 9 year old younger brother said he was going to do the same when he turned 12. We all laughed at him. At age 12 with the same old 20 gauge pump shotgun he shot a nice 8 pointer & won the same big buck contest. We're talking about the years 1975 & 1978 here. If you saw any buck, you shot it. Any buck was considered a trophy back then. We had both of our deer heads mounted & the trophies from the buck contest attached to the wall next to them. My head was turned one way,& his deer head was turned in the other. I still have that old 20 gauge shotgun with a poly choke at the end. My deer head mount in 1975 cost $65. Times have changed.

A good friend of mine was sitting in gun stand on opening morning of the Wisconsin gun season many years ago. It was still dark, & he was hunting on a farm where others were also allowed to hunt. He heard a couple walk past him in the dark. After some time had passed, he heard a loud bang & saw a flash of light. He heard the gun cock & again it went bang! After the third bang in the dark, he heard a woman yell - "Honey, how do you let that "darn" (may have been another term) hammer back down without firing?"

My aunt emptied an old Winchester.30-30 (octagon barrel) on a 7 point buck once. It happened to be her birthday that day, too. On the last shot, the buck dropped. She ran across the field yelling while reloading her gun. She had hit the buck in the spine. Her next shot knocked one of the tines off. By that time, my Dad & uncle came out of the woods to find out what was going on. They helped her finish off the buck. She then began telling her story. She couldn't believe it herself. She said, she emptied her gun & the buck just stood there until her last shot. My Dad & uncle looked at each other & said, Marlene we just heard one shot. They all went back to where she had shot from. All of her rounds were sitting on the ground unfired except for the final one. She got buck fever so bad, she empty her gun without pulling the trigger on all of the rounds except the last one. I still chuckle over that one!

I don't want to be labeled a sexist, but these stories come to mind whenever I hear talk of lever action .30-30 rifles & women. :)

In all honesty, I have shot most of my deer with a .30-30 Marlin model 336. My dad bought me that gun for Christmas after that first gun season. He probably figured my younger brother would need to use the old 20 gauge pump in a couple years. If my house was on fire & I could only grab one gun, I would grab my Marlin .30-30. It has the most memories associated with it. They are very solid, accurate guns. My vintage Marlin doesn't have the extra added safety. They are easy to clean & bore sight, too. If you remove the one pivot screw from the lever, you can slip out the lever, an extractor spring, & the entire bolt.

I really like my Marlin .30-30, but I would not recommend it for someone new to hunting. The .30-30 caliber is fine, but these guns don't typically have any type of recoil pad. Letting down the hammer to half cock would also be a bit concerning to me. The added safety may address that, but I would feel much more comfortable with a new hunter using a nice bolt action rifle instead. If they are really new to hunting, I would also buy a low power scope. Scopes that start out at 1.5 - 2 power are my preference. Finding deer in a scope is a challenge for new hunters. Low power really helps. I prefer 1.5-6X or 2-7X scopes on my deer rifles.

I would take your daughter to a gun shop, & let her shoulder a few guns. It needs to feel right for her. Lots of calibers will kill deer. There's nothing wrong with a .243 Win., 7mm-08, .308 Win, & now popular 6.5 Creedmoor. If you think she's really stick with it, I would lean towards the last three calibers. Those rounds are here to stay. Overall, there are several good affordable bolt action guns on the market. You can find some that are cheaper than a Marlin.336 (Marlin has just been taken over by Ruger / recently bought from Remington).

My wife showed some interest in deer hunting when we bought a new place with hunting land. She shot a doe with my Marlin 336, but I never felt comfortable with her using that gun. I would load it for her before I would go out. She often came out later in the day. She knew how to pull back the hammer & fire away. I taught her how to handle the gun, but I also knew the hammer scared her. About that time, Tikka appeared on the scene with a new model called the T3. It was advertised as body & soul being put together in a gun. I order .308 Tikka from Walmart. I found myself grabbing that gun every time I knew she wasn't going out. The Tikka trigger was so smooth. I would literally think my other rifles were on still on safety when pulling those tiggers. I realize you can have trigger jobs done, but the Tikka was something else out the box. I started out using old fashion Remington Core-Lokt shells in that gun, & I never bothered to ever try anything else. The gun shoots better than my ability. I was so impressed by the Tikka that after a couple years, I traded in my .270 rifle (different brand) for another .308 Tikka.

Sadly, I don't have the wife (another story) or her .308 Tikka (wood stock/blued barrel), but I still use my .308 Tikka (synthetic stock/stainless barrel) every gun season. I will never part with my 336 Marlin. I shoot it every year. If someone in my hunting group has a gun issue during the season, I hand them my Tikka, & I pull out my trusty Marlin for myself. I would never sell these two guns.

I am not saying you must buy a Tikka or .308. I would highly recommend a nice bolt action rifle with a short chambered caliber like the 7mm-08, 6.5 Creedmoor, or .308 Win. Some of the Ruger American rifles get good reviews. A Weatherby Vanguard in a 6.5 Creedmoor may be the gun that I would look at the hardest. Tikka guns are nice & light, but that comes with some extra recoil. I love the fit of my Tikka, but I am not a 5.5" woman. Savage also has some affordable bolts that are tack drivers. A bolt action with a clip is also nice for anyone, including a new hunter.

Typically, four of us (dad, brother, 1st. cousin, & myself) hunt my place opening weekend. We all have different guns (Marlin, Tikka, Browning, Savage) & calibers (.30-30, .308 Win., .270 Win., & .30-06). We all kill deer, but we can't steal shells from each other!

For what it is worth - I would focus on two scopes currently on the market for a deer rifle. If I was on a budget, I would buy a Leupold VX-Freedom 2-7x33mm. I've shot 90% of my deer @ 2x or lower. If money is not an issue, I would buy the Leupold VX-5HD 2-10x42mm. My brother was foolish & put a 4-16x scope (don't need to slam the brand) on his Savage .30-06 a few years ago. That lasted 2 years, & he had enough. He asked what I would do? He now has the VX-5HD 2-10x42mm, & he is very happy with it. Sadly, Leupold dropped their VX-II line. Those were great mid-priced scopes. Now you have to sort of pick between a little cheaper or much more expensive Leupold scope. I have Nikon & Bushnell scopes, too. I would not go back to getting more of them. Relatives have Vortex and Burris that I help them sight in. My money would go to Leupold if I was buying a new scope today. Not saying they are best. I like their optics, value, & warranty.

I sort of ran off at the mouth here. I do have experience as hunter's safety instructor. Watching kids (new adult hunters) fail to put down a gun hammer correctly was almost expected when practicing. I love expose hammer guns & revolvers, but they wouldn't be my first choice for young or new hunters.

Last story for tonight - My mom has a 1st cousin that was swing a .30-30 along his side while walking. The tip of the barrel caught the back of his boot while his thumb was on the hammer & finger on the trigger. I am not claiming all relatives are bright. He needed new boots when the gun went off. Thankfully, he didn't blow off his entire heel. I wasn't there when this happened. I can't tell you if he needed to change his underwear or not?
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Re: Need help for daughter.

Post by otisbrazwell »

micro 335 used is selling for peanuts right now (dont ask how i know) there are some complete setups around..gun id say 243 encore which is very nice to shoot..i know first hand some gals dont like recoil one bad mounted gun with the kick of a mule and thats it they wont hunt.
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Re: Need help for daughter.

Post by XB I GO »

Well, I'm no girl but I am not that much bigger than her right now. 5'7 150 pounds of teenager. I can cock the Mag 340 myself but I like the 4X4 DR Stirrup cocking rope. The crossbow is light, easy to carry and I backpack it sometimes with a split sling. It's not real expensive and it has plenty of accuracy and power to deer hunt. If your daughter decides she doesn't want to hunt or doesn't like the crossbow you will end up with a new favorite crossbow, so you can't lose on that one.

I've been shooting a lever action since I'm around 4 years old. Mine is a Winchester 94 but the caliber is 360DW. I shot my first few deer with 357 Magnum ammo from the same rifle. When I got a little bigger I used the 360DW cartridges. They are like 35 Remington in power. I shot a bison, oryx, ibex and addax and my brother shot a spike elk with the 360DW. So it has plenty of power for a deer. It is probably like the 350 Legend that just came out. The Marlin stock is too long and I have to lift my head if it has a scope. Its not the 30-30 that is too much, its the stock design. The straight gripped carbines like the 94 and the Henry's are great. A lot of people said 7mm-08 but they have skinny barrels and sometimes will jump up and the scope gets me. Nice caliber but you need just the right rifle. I shoot a Browning single shot that's 25-06. It has a long octagon barrel but not too heavy. Easy to shoot properly. My mom is kind of like your daughter in height and condition and the only rifle she likes to shoot because it fits her great is a typical 303 British Enfield bolt action. I really like to shoot that rifle too if that tells you anything. I grew up with like 200 choices in rifles in our "gun room". Only a few are the ones I really like to shoot. The Savage 99 is one, this one is 308, but it is pretty heavy. The Remington Model 8 in 35 Remington is really cool and so is the pump action 35 Remington. My favorite that I don't shoot much because it is my Dad's favorite too is the Henry lever action but ours is 35-30 caliber (you have to reload them). So I'm saying your daughter needs a rifle that doesn't jump in the front and isn't too heavy and that she can keep her head down on the stock the right way. First she has to like it and be able to work the action with it in her shoulder or on the window sill of a blind. If you're hunting deer up to 100 yards the 44 magnum and 45 Colt are pretty nice in a levergun or semi auto. What about a nice longrifle in 45 or 50 caliber? Black powder rifles don't kick like a regular rifle and they are real fun to shoot.
Good luck!
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Re: Need help for daughter.

Post by XB I GO »

I saw a couple of words about reduced loads. When you reduce the normal power you dont really have what you started with anymore. Why bother? Just get the right caliber in the first place. I have some friends who got 7mm Magnum, 7mm-08, 270 and light loads. Its the wrong rifle in the first place but the low power loads are nothing like the name on the brass. You cant tell 250 feet per second or 25 grains of bullet when there is a deer in your sights and the rifle fits. If something goes wrong you will be glad you have all the power of the cartridge and not some wanna be. I'm just a kid, what do I know? 250 Savage is awesome and 260 Remington isnt too bad either.
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Re: Need help for daughter.

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If she has no experience with guns, or even minimal, I would never start someone off with a lever action rifle. I have had some scary experiences with novice hunters uncocking a lever action rifle with gloves on and the hammer slipping off their thumb. Actually had to replace a tire on a trailer one time because of such a "oops". Thank goodness he knew enough to point the barrel down and away from me.

As far as caliber, .260 or .243 Remington, as has been mentioned, or .270 Winchester. Minimial recoil and fairly light weight.

My gun I let newbies use is either a Mossberg 20ga 500 pump or a Remington Model 6 pump in .243. Simple and safer to use for the inexperienced.
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Re: Need help for daughter.

Post by Patcon »

I was gonna agree with AJ from earlier about the 30-30. I would probably try a .243 in bolt action. I have a savage .243 youth model that fits my daughters really well. Felt recoil gets even better if your allowed to have a can
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Re: Need help for daughter.

Post by janesy »

XB I GO wrote:
Wed Dec 23, 2020 8:42 am
I saw a couple of words about reduced loads. When you reduce the normal power you dont really have what you started with anymore. Why bother? Just get the right caliber in the first place. I have some friends who got 7mm Magnum, 7mm-08, 270 and light loads. Its the wrong rifle in the first place but the low power loads are nothing like the name on the brass. You cant tell 250 feet per second or 25 grains of bullet when there is a deer in your sights and the rifle fits. If something goes wrong you will be glad you have all the power of the cartridge and not some wanna be. I'm just a kid, what do I know? 250 Savage is awesome and 260 Remington isnt too bad either.
Your not wrong. But a handloaded reduced recoil round would most likely outperform most store bought ammo in ever situation, while allowing bullet selection and typically better accuracy.
Reduced recoil handloads is not the same as reduced recoil factory loads.
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Re: Need help for daughter.

Post by flightattendant100 »

janesy wrote:
Tue Dec 22, 2020 6:50 pm
AJ01 wrote:
Tue Dec 22, 2020 9:02 am
Okay...this is really a "loaded question". No pun intended! Okay, maybe just a little. :lol:

Sorry, but I would NOT buy her a "30-30" for her first rifle. I know they have killed a million deer since coming out, but, let me explain.
She's 5'5"...stock design has a lot to do with "felt recoil". And let's face it, the stock design leaves a little to be desired on 99% of all lever guns.
In my humble opinion, it's not a good choice for a novice hunter. :eusa-snooty:

If I had to pick a single round for a novice hunter, I would take either the 7mm-08, or the .260 Remington. Either round will kill anything in the lower 48. True, might be a little on the light side for Elk or Moose. But in a pinch, it would do the job with the right bullet.
Rifle would be a standard bolt action made by anyone and it would be topped with a piece of good quality glass. If needed the stock could be "cut down" to fit the length of pull needed to properly fit the shooter.
Sure you can cut down the stock on a "30-30" but that only succeeds in increasing the amount of "felt recoil" to the shooter. :eusa-doh:
Stock design goes a long way in making an accurate shooter out of someone. Proper eye relief with the scope. Proper and consistent check weld every time you plant you face to the stock. Bolt guns just make sense.
Ever see a National Match winner shooting a lever gun?? :eusa-naughty:

And like Chris said...get her a 308 Short as her crossbow. Can find one of those, then a GRZ!!

And lastly....as we ALL know, opinions are like another part of one's anatomy. Everyone has one. :lol: :lol:

AJ
I'd second the 7mm-08. That's what I picked up for my Daughter, her birthday is coming up in 14 more years. I would consider a model 7 or my friend just picked up a Ruger compact that feels great but with enough weight to keep it under control.

But more importantly, if you reload, get familiar with 60% loads with H4895 and you will have a very efficient and pleasant rifle to shoot.
My friend does not like recoil, so I do intend to load him some reduced loads for the 7mm-08 before next November.
I love my 7/08. I also have a little experience with lighter than normal loads. Colton is tiny and was even tinier when he started hunting. I have found that about 90% loads will do about anything full loads will and that 10% cuts recoil snd noise quite a bit. I have used IMR powders and 4895 and 4064 both work great for this purpose.. Truely reduced loads can be a bit dicey. Make sure everything comes out of a manual. Have fun!
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Re: Need help for daughter.

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There's a new hardly used Axiom with bolts hard case and charger crank on my local craigslist for 500 bucks l betcha the guy👦 would take 450 for it !
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Re: Need help for daughter.

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I’ve had new users shoot my Marlin and all they got was on round at a time. But it is true that a fully loaded up bolt gun is more safe than a fully loaded up lever action. I know of one fatality resulting from poor handling of a lever action gun.
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Re: Need help for daughter.

Post by Driftless hunter »

Since your daughter is a grown woman, I would consider the .243 Win (100 grains) & slightly up.

6.5 Creedmoor (140 grains) or .308 Winchester (150 grains), short action bolts, with a nice recoil pad would be my choice.

A step up would be a .270 Win.(130 grains), but that would be a long action bolt. Many rounds are great for deer, but I prefer the more common rounds that can be found without too much hassle. Even though the 6.5 Creedmoor is more of a new round, it's very popular these days. I sort of prefer the .308 Win myself. There's nothing wrong with a 7mm-08 Rem (140 grains) either.

If you have your heart set on the a .30-30 lever gun, I prefer the Marlin over the Winchester, The flat top on the Marlin makes scope mounting easier. I have no experience with Henry, but they seem like nice guns. Henry has a 6.5 Creedmoor lever action that uses a clip, but it may be a bit more expensive than some of the bolt actions on the market.

Recoil chart - https://www.chuckhawks.com/recoil_table.htm

Make it a positive 1st experience. Use good hearing protection & don't have her shoot to much gun. Learn to hunt instructors in my area learned to use light loads while practicing with youth. Otherwise, kids weren't pulling the triggers on close Toms. They scared them. Now, they save the turkeys loads for the actual hunt. Kids never notice the extra bang in the excitement of the hunt. Start her with a .22 LR. Likewise, kids should.be shooting squirrels first, not deer!
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Re: Need help for daughter.

Post by janesy »

flightattendant100 wrote:
Wed Dec 23, 2020 7:49 pm
]
I love my 7/08. I also have a little experience with lighter than normal loads. Colton is tiny and was even tinier when he started hunting. I have found that about 90% loads will do about anything full loads will and that 10% cuts recoil snd noise quite a bit. I have used IMR powders and 4895 and 4064 both work great for this purpose.. Truely reduced loads can be a bit dicey. Make sure everything comes out of a manual. Have fun!
Good to hear your experience. I edited my post to remove the 60% loads, I always catch myself calling it that. That's bad lingo to use on my part...is it 60% or reduced by 60%? People will try anyting

Anyhow, 90% was pretty close to my plan. Based on Hodgdon info I was planning on taking the starting load and reducing it by the Max-minus-Start spread, and then that again. 5.5 Grains total reduction from 40.5 which would be about 88.5% of max load.
Then work back up to Start load to see if there is a node it there it likes.
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