Moon nocks

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flightattendant100
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Re: Moon nocks

Post by flightattendant100 »

IronNoggin wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 2:30 pm
Sure... NOW you post this after I just bought ten more FLAT Luminoks from you! Crafty Ol' Bugger! :lol:

Interesting information alright. But I'll have to wear out around 3 dozen of the flat ones before I jump onboard methinks...

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janesy
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Re: Moon nocks

Post by janesy »

IronNoggin wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 2:30 pm
Sure... NOW you post this after I just bought ten more FLAT Luminoks from you! Crafty Ol' Bugger! :lol:

Interesting information alright. But I'll have to wear out around 3 dozen of the flat ones before I jump onboard methinks...

Cheers,
Nog
Bahaha! I was waiting to see who spoke up first!
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Re: Moon nocks

Post by xcaliber »

Math is a funny thing, and you learn more listening than speaking because of mathematics. Two ears. :eusa-think: :think: :eusa-popcorn:
Very interesting, and Thank You for sharing.
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Re: Moon nocks

Post by janesy »

Boo wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 1:32 pm
janesy wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 12:04 pm
Boo wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 10:50 am
I've always used flat nocks for my Excaliburs and steered others away from them because of indexing problems. I have used capture nocks and fully endorse their use. Because I am doing some work with Killer Instinct and their Swat, one of the guys involved (SEW) has discovered that moon nocks or capture nocks for that matter will give you a 5 ft/sec speed advantage as well as reduced serving wear at the deck. I talked to Excalibur's engineer and he is very interested. He texted an image that you guys might want to see! I'm pretty sure my NDA with Bowtech won't get me into trouble if I post it but I'll wait until I get the go ahead. It's all pretty cool!
Bottom line is that flat nocks are a pretty good assurance for those who may mis-index.
I was talking to the owner at Burt Coyote and they have a new moon nock design which I really like.
I can understand capture, but why do you think the moon knocks would produce any further speed advantage over flat?

I still do believe that given the rate of dryfires, and or undisclosed mishaps, flat knock is in the best interest. But if you already index, why not go capture.
The advantage is that the string will stay centered in the nock. That keeps the string off the deck to reduce serving wear and the polymer nock is far more slippery, hence the speed advantage.
The picture below is a high speed capture on an Excalibur. This whole thing is a surprise for me. Again, the flat nock is pretty simple but the capture nock would be the best for preventing semi dry-fires which is extremely common, much more common than virtually anyone understands.
Image
Ok first of all that is really cool!

But it immediately makes me think of a point load(it's quoting season, humor me). The tension of the string is still 100% there, it's just not on the deck now. Its on the arrow.
Great for string, not for carbon. Did they have any feedback as to the life of an arrow now that the extra pressure is being forced through the arrow to the deck.
I don't see it being a considerably altering situation, but if you shoot a lot, it surely has to wear more on the arrow where it contacts the barrel now. How could it not?

Interesting, I'm intrigued.
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Re: Moon nocks

Post by Boo »

Chris, I am intrigued as well! I think the nock is going to take most of the pressure because an arrow on a non-enclosed bow tends to fly nose up off the deck. Add to that most bows use moon nocks with no adverse effects that I'm aware of. I think I'll try some this year and I will report to you on my findings.
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janesy
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Re: Moon nocks

Post by janesy »

Boo wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 8:31 pm
Chris, I am intrigued as well! I think the nock is going to take most of the pressure because an arrow on a non-enclosed bow tends to fly nose up off the deck. Add to that most bows use moon nocks with no adverse effects that I'm aware of. I think I'll try some this year and I will report to you on my findings.
I've just went and weighed out a bunch of arrows and nocks and I'm going to put them over the Chrony with the light kit right now back to back. I would prefer to use the same arrow, but evidently BE moon nocks are 2.5 grains heavier than the same flat nock. I've two arrows setup +/- .3 grains apart. That should be close enough
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Re: Moon nocks

Post by Boo »

janesy wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 8:47 pm
Boo wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 8:31 pm
Chris, I am intrigued as well! I think the nock is going to take most of the pressure because an arrow on a non-enclosed bow tends to fly nose up off the deck. Add to that most bows use moon nocks with no adverse effects that I'm aware of. I think I'll try some this year and I will report to you on my findings.
I've just went and weighed out a bunch of arrows and nocks and I'm going to put them over the Chrony with the light kit right now back to back. I would prefer to use the same arrow, but evidently BE moon nocks are 2.5 grains heavier than the same flat nock. I've two arrows setup +/- .3 grains apart. That should be close enough
Great! Excalibur’s engineer is checking this out as well!
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Re: Moon nocks

Post by Boo »

IronNoggin wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 2:30 pm
Sure... NOW you post this after I just bought ten more FLAT Luminoks from you! Crafty Ol' Bugger! :lol:

Interesting information alright. But I'll have to wear out around 3 dozen of the flat ones before I jump onboard methinks...

Cheers,
Nog
Matt, I forgot, I will be ordering more flat Lumenoks when I run out of the ones I have now. So don't think I'm running away from flat nocks.
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janesy
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Re: Moon nocks

Post by janesy »

Boo wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 9:01 pm
janesy wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 8:47 pm
Boo wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 8:31 pm
Chris, I am intrigued as well! I think the nock is going to take most of the pressure because an arrow on a non-enclosed bow tends to fly nose up off the deck. Add to that most bows use moon nocks with no adverse effects that I'm aware of. I think I'll try some this year and I will report to you on my findings.
I've just went and weighed out a bunch of arrows and nocks and I'm going to put them over the Chrony with the light kit right now back to back. I would prefer to use the same arrow, but evidently BE moon nocks are 2.5 grains heavier than the same flat nock. I've two arrows setup +/- .3 grains apart. That should be close enough
Great! Excalibur’s engineer is checking this out as well!
Interestingly boring results. 2 arrows, identically assembled weighing .3 grains apart. Shot over the Chrony with lights in the darks. Same setup as always. Each arrow shot with a flat nock to establish a POI.

AXE 340 5 shots. 374.5grain arrow

Flat nock average speed 332.1
Moon nocks 331.0

Variation between the two was interesting. The flat nock stayed between 332 and 333.5 fps
The moon nocks dropped to 228 and 333.1.

While these numbers are pretty boring and totally standard. In the 10 shots I took. The flat nock did not react in both speed or accuracy. It was straight up consistent. Regardless of how the arrow was loaded, fast, slow smooth, ... It didn't matter.

The moon nocks on the other hand, responded with the fastest speed(basically consistent with the flat nock) and accuracy if I took time and twisted the arrow to ensure it was perfectly seated. Of you just slid the arrow into place, you lost 2-3 fps and accuracy degraded. This was expected, but worth paying attention to for the general public, who isn't going to check.

Worth mentioning, the POI raised 1 inch and Right with the moon nocks.

To sum up, the speed and accuracy was the same or negligible with the moon nocks, as long as you took time to ensure perfect placement on the string. I feel a capture nock would solve this, but if at no benefit, then I can't comment if it's worth it or not.
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Re: Moon nocks

Post by janesy »

Further, and it so happens that I have a roughspot on my barrel somewhere. The moon nock show significantly more wear than the flat nock. To the extent that I had never noticed wear on the flat nocks before. But it was clearly evident on the moon nocks.

So as expected the down pressure is increased on the moon nocks.
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Re: Moon nocks

Post by Boo »

janesy wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 12:22 pm
Further, and it so happens that I have a roughspot on my barrel somewhere. The moon nock show significantly more wear than the flat nock. To the extent that I had never noticed wear on the flat nocks before. But it was clearly evident on the moon nocks.

So as expected the down pressure is increased on the moon nocks.
That is interesting Chris. So I wonder what would happen if you didn't have the rough spot? Obviously the flat nock isn't effected so there's a benefit. So go take a file to the deck and bring back some numbers :wave: I want to do some testing by blue printing the deck to see how much serving contact there is when using a moon nock. I still say that capture nocks rule and that way would be beneficial to Excalibur for a couple of reasons. Five ft/sec of a possible gain is insignificant.
BTW, what nocks did you use? Polycarbonate just may offer a much lower amount of friction.
The bottom line is that discussions like this is good. It sometimes brings good to us shooters and hunters!
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Re: Moon nocks

Post by nchunterkw »

janesy wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 12:18 pm
Boo wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 9:01 pm
janesy wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 8:47 pm


I've just went and weighed out a bunch of arrows and nocks and I'm going to put them over the Chrony with the light kit right now back to back. I would prefer to use the same arrow, but evidently BE moon nocks are 2.5 grains heavier than the same flat nock. I've two arrows setup +/- .3 grains apart. That should be close enough
Great! Excalibur’s engineer is checking this out as well!
Interestingly boring results. 2 arrows, identically assembled weighing .3 grains apart. Shot over the Chrony with lights in the darks. Same setup as always. Each arrow shot with a flat nock to establish a POI.

AXE 340 5 shots. 374.5grain arrow

Flat nock average speed 332.1
Moon nocks 331.0

Variation between the two was interesting. The flat nock stayed between 332 and 333.5 fps
The moon nocks dropped to 228 and 333.1.

While these numbers are pretty boring and totally standard. In the 10 shots I took. The flat nock did not react in both speed or accuracy. It was straight up consistent. Regardless of how the arrow was loaded, fast, slow smooth, ... It didn't matter.

The moon nocks on the other hand, responded with the fastest speed(basically consistent with the flat nock) and accuracy if I took time and twisted the arrow to ensure it was perfectly seated. Of you just slid the arrow into place, you lost 2-3 fps and accuracy degraded. This was expected, but worth paying attention to for the general public, who isn't going to check.

Worth mentioning, the POI raised 1 inch and Right with the moon nocks.

To sum up, the speed and accuracy was the same or negligible with the moon nocks, as long as you took time to ensure perfect placement on the string. I feel a capture nock would solve this, but if at no benefit, then I can't comment if it's worth it or not.
Chris,
This tells me that the downward string pressure with a flat nock is swamping out any variation that nock may have on the speed. But in the case of the moon nock, since the string pressure on the deck is reduced, and transferred to the nock, variation in how the string "attaches" to the nock is translating to a speed variation. As Boo says, nock material in that case seems to play a role in speed.

Seems to me if Excalibur determines this to be of significance, then a redesign to eliminate all downward string pressure on the deck would be the best way to go about this. Of course that would REQUIRE a capture nock IMO.
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Re: Moon nocks

Post by Hi5 »

Would capture nocks make the arrow retention spring unnecessary?
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Re: Moon nocks

Post by Boo »

Hi5 wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 1:18 pm
Would capture nocks make the arrow retention spring unnecessary?
No, it still needs it. The arrow has a tendency to lift at the nose from launch. Plus, it would be way too easy to dislodge the arrow once loaded.
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Re: Moon nocks

Post by janesy »

Boo wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 12:52 pm
janesy wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 12:22 pm
Further, and it so happens that I have a roughspot on my barrel somewhere. The moon nock show significantly more wear than the flat nock. To the extent that I had never noticed wear on the flat nocks before. But it was clearly evident on the moon nocks.

So as expected the down pressure is increased on the moon nocks.
That is interesting Chris. So I wonder what would happen if you didn't have the rough spot? Obviously the flat nock isn't effected so there's a benefit. So go take a file to the deck and bring back some numbers :wave: I want to do some testing by blue printing the deck to see how much serving contact there is when using a moon nock. I still say that capture nocks rule and that way would be beneficial to Excalibur for a couple of reasons. Five ft/sec of a possible gain is insignificant.
BTW, what nocks did you use? Polycarbonate just may offer a much lower amount of friction.
The bottom line is that discussions like this is good. It sometimes brings good to us shooters and hunters!
It's already Cerakoted :(

I used the nocks that come in a box of BE factory flectched arrows. Comes with both flat and moon typocally
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