Shooting the VPA 3 Blade fixed???

[AJ01]

I was wondering if anyone has any experience with this particular broadhead? I'm looking at the 150g model. Any comments?



I'm looking into arrow builds of close to 500g or more in total weight.

Thoughts?

[nchunterkw]

AJ,
Great minds I guess................I bought those in 300gr for my Trad bow and in 200gr for my Crossbows. I got the 1 1/4" models of both. The 300gr versions fly great out of my recurve and I don't have any doubt they will fly great out of my crossbow. I used the 200gr single bevels out of my Micro. Fly like arts and you can get them really really sharp.

In another post I talked about the Stay Sharp 344 sharpening system for these 3 blades. It seems to work well for me and gets them sharper than a flat stone.

Heads from VPA are great quality

[AJ01]

I really like the design of these blades. The cutting surfaces on these are well laid out, and like you said, and I have been told by others, you can get these things sharp!! Some even say "stupid sharp". They are tough solid carbon steel. I like the "pyramid tip" found on these blades also.
I was wondering, since these are carbon steel and not stainless, do the cutting surfaces rust if left untreated? I would think a smear of vaseline or chapstick placed on the cutting surface would "heal" that problem. IF...it even exist.
Sometimes I "over think" things!!
And...these are made in the USA!!!

But the more I look at "Adult Arrows", the better they appear to work! I have found over the last few years my total arrow weights have climbed the scale somewhat!
In 2017, I started at 400g, then went to 425, now 485 and my next project will be somewhere about the 525g range. The heavier the game gets, the heavier the arrows get!!

Keith you picked the 200g for your Micro. Why it over the 150? What is your FOC on that rig? What about "arrow drop" at given yardages? Do you find that "heavy arrows" follow the parabolic curve more than lighter arrows?
And lastly I guess, do heavy arrows hinder the distance in which you will shoot at an animal? I personally have NEVER shot at a game animal over 35 yards. So I guess that kinda makes that a moot point.

In the past 5 years I have helped track 2 deer that were NEVER found. One of them was a nice Buck I shot with "factory" Quill arrows and a BIG expandable broadhead. The broadhead broke off part of the aluminum insert and the head on impact, and it was later determined it never penetrated into the chest cavity.
I have NEVER shot another aluminum inserted arrow at another game animal!!

I think we see this a lot if you watch enough hunting videos, you'll see deer shot that run off with 85% of the arrow hanging out of them! No penetration!! Why? As my "hero" would say..."Your probably shooting "Twizzlers" instead of adult arrows"!!
Not every shot goes as planned. That's why my setup has gotten heavier and heavier over time. I want all the advantages I can garner!!
After all, we are supposed to be "Sportsmen", we owe our quarry the respect it deserves and to bring about the end as quickly as possible.

[nchunterkw]

Hey AJ,
I'm 100% with you. Adult arrows are the way to go. Last year I hit a nice buck a bit low behind the leg. Really kind of right behind the leg. I was at about 425 grains total with a 125gr RamCat on the front. I've blown through so many deer with this exact setup...until I didn't. Now for sure he was much bigger than most of the does I shoot here in NC so there is that....but I never found him. Tracked over 2 days for over 400 yards through a pine thicket...1 drop every few yards. It was terrible.

After that I wanted to up my arrow weight some more and get a "more indestructible" broadhead. It's tough on a Micro to get a real high weight without doing shaft inserts etc. So I went with the 200gr heads. To me that is a better play that going with a 150gr head AND a 50gr weight. Yes, you get the same total weight either way, but remember rule #1.....arrow sustains no damage....and a 200gr head is so much beefier than a 150gr that to me it's more indestructible. It ain't gonna bend.

Later in the year I shot a smaller deer with the same arrow setup with with the 200gr single bevel...so I was about 500gr. And my BH was SHARP sharp. Quartering to and I took out the top of the heart and both lungs. I've never seen so much blood on the arrow and the BH was buried in a small tree. All the way. So I cut the tree down and got my BH back! These were the tool steel ones. And it was pristine.

I also did some testing last year with FOC and drop. I made 2 arrows that had drastically different FOC...Both were 16.5" zombies with 110gr brass inserts. I think I used a 150gr head on the front of the first for my high FOC arrow, (around 25%, and weighed about 460gr) and on the second I dropped that to 100gr and put another 110gr brass insert in the rear. That arrow was somewhere around 10% FOC or less and weight 490gr.

It seems that arrow drop is 100% related to weight and nothing else. The higher FOC arrow that weighed a bit less dropped LESS than the low FOC arrow that weighed more. 100% gravity and mass.

Kind of a bummer because I was thinking the low FOC would fly flatter and allow me to up my arrow weight more and still have acceptable trajectory. I thought since we shoot ridiculously stiff shafts that it would be OK to have more weight in the back. But it turns out it doesn't matter. SO load up the front until your trajectory is too much for you. But with our multi-reticle scopes trajectory doesn't matter that much IMO. We have so many aiming points and options to play with. You just gotta figure out what each reticle is with your heavy arrows as they may not be exact 10yd increments anymore. Just write them on the inside of the limb with a sharpie if you think you might forget in the heat of the moment.

[flightattendant100]

Hey AJ,
I'm 100% with you. Adult arrows are the way to go. Last year I hit a nice buck a bit low behind the leg. Really kind of right behind the leg. I was at about 425 grains total with a 125gr RamCat on the front. I've blown through so many deer with this exact setup...until I didn't. Now for sure he was much bigger than most of the does I shoot here in NC so there is that....but I never found him. Tracked over 2 days for over 400 yards through a pine thicket...1 drop every few yards. It was terrible.

After that I wanted to up my arrow weight some more and get a "more indestructible" broadhead. It's tough on a Micro to get a real high weight without doing shaft inserts etc. So I went with the 200gr heads. To me that is a better play that going with a 150gr head AND a 50gr weight. Yes, you get the same total weight either way, but remember rule #1.....arrow sustains no damage....and a 200gr head is so much beefier than a 150gr that to me it's more indestructible. It ain't gonna bend.

Later in the year I shot a smaller deer with the same arrow setup with with the 200gr single bevel...so I was about 500gr. And my BH was SHARP sharp. Quartering to and I took out the top of the heart and both lungs. I've never seen so much blood on the arrow and the BH was buried in a small tree. All the way. So I cut the tree down and got my BH back! These were the tool steel ones. And it was pristine.

I also did some testing last year with FOC and drop. I made 2 arrows that had drastically different FOC...Both were 16.5" zombies with 110gr brass inserts. I think I used a 150gr head on the front of the first for my high FOC arrow, (around 25%, and weighed about 460gr) and on the second I dropped that to 100gr and put another 110gr brass insert in the rear. That arrow was somewhere around 10% FOC or less and weight 490gr.

It seems that arrow drop is 100% related to weight and nothing else. The higher FOC arrow that weighed a bit less dropped LESS than the low FOC arrow that weighed more. 100% gravity and mass.

Kind of a bummer because I was thinking the low FOC would fly flatter and allow me to up my arrow weight more and still have acceptable trajectory. I thought since we shoot ridiculously stiff shafts that it would be OK to have more weight in the back. But it turns out it doesn't matter. SO load up the front until your trajectory is too much for you. But with our multi-reticle scopes trajectory doesn't matter that much IMO. We have so many aiming points and options to play with. You just gotta figure out what each reticle is with your heavy arrows as they may not be exact 10yd increments anymore. Just write them on the inside of the limb with a sharpie if you think you might forget in the heat of the moment.

Keith, do you remember when SEW used to post on here? Some of his experiments were how to get arrow to shoot flatter with same weight. I thought that he claimed that lower FOC would shoot flatter, but he also played with different fletching applied w less offset etc. , so it may have been less drag that got his results . I just remember the posts but not all his details .

[AJ01]

Building or having arrows built with shaft inserts, ***Thank You Norman!!**, seems the logical choice. However, I understand a lot of folks are NOT going to spend upwards of $100 bucks or more for 6 arrows. I do think Dave at Wyvern's is buidling 500g Excal arrows these days for somewhere in that neighborhood of green!
When I get ready for more, I'll beg my arrow building friend in Canada for more!! His are "lovely" things to behold!!
Anyway...I'm off subject.

FOC playes a HUGE deal in arrow penetration. Momentum is hard to stop.

Folks talk about speed. Speed is good, but from what I'm seeing in the field, it ain't everything. It takes a combination of heavy FOC, correct arrow flight, and SHARP TOUGH broadheads with correctly spined arrows to create the so-called "Indestructable Arrow" as Ashby lined out in his "Top 12 Arrow Penetration Factors".
Remember....rule #1 is "Structural Integrity". As Ashby says, "if any component of your arrow fails penetration is either completely stopped or greatly reduced".
Of course rule #2 is "perfect" arrow flight and #3 is FOC.
And if you read that study, Ashby says that FOC's over 30% enhances penetration by as much as 40% to 60%. That's crazy numbers!!

Shooting a number of animals every year and being around folks who shoot a a lot of thick-skinned Uglies, you learn pretty dang quick what works and what don't.
I started shooting a vertical back in the Stone Age (Mid 80's), when fast bows were way slower than slow bows today. I remember the days of 85 grain broadheads cause folks wanted speed. I also remember helping a LOT of folks look for "lost deer" that were never found.

Since picking a bow up again in 2017, I can say that things have changed indeed!! Speeds have skyrocketed! There are more gadgets that one can put on a bow than the law allows. All in the name of "success".
However, the laws of physics have NOT changed.
I'm a firm believer in heavier is better.

I'm going to try the VPA this fall...we will see what happens!!

[nchunterkw]

Keith, do you remember when SEW used to post on here? Some of his experiments were how to get arrow to shoot flatter with same weight. I thought that he claimed that lower FOC would shoot flatter, but he also played with different fletching applied w less offset etc. , so it may have been less drag that got his results . I just remember the posts but not all his details .

Yes...he and I chatted some too...and that was why I did m=y experiments last year. But it just wasn't to be. Sine my arrows were not the exact same weight, low FOC "could" make it fly flatter.....but if so it's by a very tiny amount...and it wasn't enough to overcome the extra weight in my experiment.

[nchunterkw]

Building or having arrows built with shaft inserts, ***Thank You Norman!!**, seems the logical choice. However, I understand a lot of folks are NOT going to spend upwards of $100 bucks or more for 6 arrows. I do think Dave at Wyvern's is buidling 500g Excal arrows these days for somewhere in that neighborhood of green!
When I get ready for more, I'll beg my arrow building friend in Canada for more!! His are "lovely" things to behold!!
Anyway...I'm off subject.

FOC playes a HUGE deal in arrow penetration. Momentum is hard to stop.

Folks talk about speed. Speed is good, but from what I'm seeing in the field, it ain't everything. It takes a combination of heavy FOC, correct arrow flight, and SHARP TOUGH broadheads with correctly spined arrows to create the so-called "Indestructable Arrow" as Ashby lined out in his "Top 12 Arrow Penetration Factors".
Remember....rule #1 is "Structural Integrity". As Ashby says, "if any component of your arrow fails penetration is either completely stopped or greatly reduced".
Of course rule #2 is "perfect" arrow flight and #3 is FOC.
And if you read that study, Ashby says that FOC's over 30% enhances penetration by as much as 40% to 60%. That's crazy numbers!!

Shooting a number of animals every year and being around folks who shoot a a lot of thick-skinned Uglies, you learn pretty dang quick what works and what don't.
I started shooting a vertical back in the Stone Age (Mid 80's), when fast bows were way slower than slow bows today. I remember the days of 85 grain broadheads cause folks wanted speed. I also remember helping a LOT of folks look for "lost deer" that were never found.

Since picking a bow up again in 2017, I can say that things have changed indeed!! Speeds have skyrocketed! There are more gadgets that one can put on a bow than the law allows. All in the name of "success".
However, the laws of physics have NOT changed.
I'm a firm believer in heavier is better.

I'm going to try the VPA this fall...we will see what happens!!

AJ,
Remember....the shaft inserts will make you heavier....but ALL the way along the shaft. To get the ultra high FOC it all needs to be up front. I forget what inserts Norm uses (please chime in), but they are stainless steel and you can get them in a lot of weights....and they are adjustable. Another option is to use the weight systems that Gold Tip or Black Eagle have. They both offer weights that screw into the inserts. Your third option is to just go with a bigger heavier broadhead. But that gets tough with my Micro as I would have to shorten my arrows by about an inch to keep a 300gr VPA 3 blade inside the stirrup.

[AJ01]

Keith, I get it. However, I'm no arrow builder!! (In the voice of Desi Arnez playing Ricky Richardo)... "Oh Norman!!! You got some splanning to do!!"

If I'm not mistaken, the shafts Norm built me are around 447.5g if my scale is correct, and that's with Lumenok installed and no head attached. Adding a 150g blade to that puts me at about 597.5, which is dang close to that "magical" number of 600g. I could use a lighter head, but why retard the action you are looking for?
You know how it goes, "for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction"! Fling that into soft tissue and something has to give, and it's gonna take a bit for it to stop. Kinda like trying to stop a train on a dime!

The overall lenght would probably be my last concern. If the head was deep in the stirrup, or even past it, I'm not loading the "missle" until I get set in my stand or blind and get down to business. And if for some reason you wanted to stick your foot in the stirrup with the arrow in place, you'd just knock it out with your boot, I would think. I understand it's a "safety issue", but hopefully common sense would prevail.
No jab at you intended!! No pun either!!

And yes, I know guys who shoot arrows that hang past the stirrup.

I think you kind of reach a "tipping point" with heavy arrow builds. With you and I shooting micros we are somewhat limited by arrow lenght. Guys shooting the bows like the 380 Matrix or one of the 400's would have an easier time reaching that arrow weight.
You figure most vertical arrow builds are are 30 to 38 inches. Try that in a crossbow!!
So heavy arrow weight is a LOT easier to achieve with verticals than horizontals! But I also undertsand speed lies with the crossbow. You have to find a happy medium, in my opinion.

Great discussion by the way!!
Now, if Norman would just chime in about the process of building "Missles"!!

[Normous]

The components used for Andy's arras consist of the following:

- 16.5" BEE .001 , spine indexed and squared.
- 110 SS Ethics custom inserts.
- .297" 6" inner carbon tube added up front at 8.5 gpi added using 2 part 24 hr slow set flexible epoxy.
- 18 gr add a weight added to BE nocks to match the 28 gr Lumenok nock.
- 3.15" VT Swift HD used .
Total weight without point is 367.5 gr . All 6 built within half grain variance. Andy check your scale , may its not smelling very good at the moment

Always protect your oak table or else

[nchunterkw]

I tried a few different "large" heads last year and a few hung past the stirrup on my current arrows. Not a fan. I'm always setting my bow down on the stirrup and you can't do that with that long point on.

A point about total arrow length.....it can affect accuracy. Might not but could. The fletching's create drag and that force acts on the arrow to straighten out the flight. So just like any lever, the further you are away from the spot you are trying to move...the less force you need. As you shorten the arrow, the fletching's get closer to the center point (point we are trying to control) and so they must use a higher force to get the job done. SO as your arrow gets shorter, if nothing else is different you might not have the accuracy you did with something longer.

That 20" or 22" arrow out of those long limbers is a big reason why they are so accurate. Not that my Micro is inaccurate, but I think my Vortex shot a little bit tighter groups.

Anyway.....getting jacked for bow season to get here....And excited to hear how your "logs" perform this year

[AJ01]

The components used for Andy's arras consist of the following:

- 16.5" BEE .001 , spine indexed and squared.
- 110 SS Ethics custom inserts.
- .297" 6" inner carbon tube added up front at 8.5 gpi added using 2 part 24 hr slow set flexible epoxy.
- 18 gr add a weight added to BE nocks to match the 28 gr Lumenok nock.
- 3.15" VT Swift HD used .
Total weight without point is 367.5 gr . All 6 built within half grain variance. Andy check your scale , may its not smelling very good at the moment

Always protect your oak table or else

Thanks Norm!!
I'll check the scale. I was having to convert from grams to grains. Maybe my math ain't too swell. I guess ya have to pay attention to learn something!!
The scale I was using is made to weigh reptiles, not arras!!!
I guess (okay I know) I need to buy a better scale!!

[papabear1]

Keith, I get it. However, I'm no arrow builder!! (In the voice of Desi Arnez playing Ricky Richardo)... "Oh Norman!!! You got some splanning to do!!"

If I'm not mistaken, the shafts Norm built me are around 447.5g if my scale is correct, and that's with Lumenok installed and no head attached. Adding a 150g blade to that puts me at about 597.5, which is dang close to that "magical" number of 600g. I could use a lighter head, but why retard the action you are looking for?
You know how it goes, "for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction"! Fling that into soft tissue and something has to give, and it's gonna take a bit for it to stop. Kinda like trying to stop a train on a dime!

The overall lenght would probably be my last concern. If the head was deep in the stirrup, or even past it, I'm not loading the "missle" until I get set in my stand or blind and get down to business. And if for some reason you wanted to stick your foot in the stirrup with the arrow in place, you'd just knock it out with your boot, I would think. I understand it's a "safety issue", but hopefully common sense would prevail.
No jab at you intended!! No pun either!!

And yes, I know guys who shoot arrows that hang past the stirrup.

I think you kind of reach a "tipping point" with heavy arrow builds. With you and I shooting micros we are somewhat limited by arrow lenght. Guys shooting the bows like the 380 Matrix or one of the 400's would have an easier time reaching that arrow weight.
You figure most vertical arrow builds are are 30 to 38 inches. Try that in a crossbow!!
So heavy arrow weight is a LOT easier to achieve with verticals than horizontals! But I also undertsand speed lies with the crossbow. You have to find a happy medium, in my opinion.

Great discussion by the way!!
Now, if Norman would just chime in about the process of building "Missles"!!

WOW !!!! You go all the way back to the Rickey Richardo show
you are getting old.

Dave

[DuckHunt]

I forget what inserts Norm uses (please chime in), but they are stainless steel and you can get them in a lot of weights....and they are adjustable. Another option is to use the weight systems that Gold Tip or Black Eagle have. They both offer weights that screw into the inserts. Your third option is to just go with a bigger heavier broadhead. But that gets tough with my Micro as I would have to shorten my arrows by about an inch to keep a 300gr VPA 3 blade inside the stirrup.

Ethics Archery has the stainless inserts that are adjustable.
92 - 110gr
125 - 200gr in 25gr increments
200 - 400gr in 50 grain increments

https://ethicsarchery.com/products/ethics-archery-clean-cut-adjustable-static-insert-300-12-pk?variant=39299567910935

You'd have some spendy arrows when you are done. But they may be worth it for a specific purpose. I have some in one set of arrows and they're nice.

Using 200gr inserts would help with your FOC, but I'm guessing a 200gr broadhead would be pretty durable in its own right.

[AJ01]

Keith, I get it. However, I'm no arrow builder!! (In the voice of Desi Arnez playing Ricky Richardo)... "Oh Norman!!! You got some splanning to do!!"

If I'm not mistaken, the shafts Norm built me are around 447.5g if my scale is correct, and that's with Lumenok installed and no head attached. Adding a 150g blade to that puts me at about 597.5, which is dang close to that "magical" number of 600g. I could use a lighter head, but why retard the action you are looking for?
You know how it goes, "for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction"! Fling that into soft tissue and something has to give, and it's gonna take a bit for it to stop. Kinda like trying to stop a train on a dime!

The overall lenght would probably be my last concern. If the head was deep in the stirrup, or even past it, I'm not loading the "missle" until I get set in my stand or blind and get down to business. And if for some reason you wanted to stick your foot in the stirrup with the arrow in place, you'd just knock it out with your boot, I would think. I understand it's a "safety issue", but hopefully common sense would prevail.
No jab at you intended!! No pun either!!

And yes, I know guys who shoot arrows that hang past the stirrup.

I think you kind of reach a "tipping point" with heavy arrow builds. With you and I shooting micros we are somewhat limited by arrow lenght. Guys shooting the bows like the 380 Matrix or one of the 400's would have an easier time reaching that arrow weight.
You figure most vertical arrow builds are are 30 to 38 inches. Try that in a crossbow!!
So heavy arrow weight is a LOT easier to achieve with verticals than horizontals! But I also undertsand speed lies with the crossbow. You have to find a happy medium, in my opinion.

Great discussion by the way!!
Now, if Norman would just chime in about the process of building "Missles"!!

WOW !!!! You go all the way back to the Rickey Richardo show
you are getting old.

Dave

Yes Dave, I went there!!