Convince me about crossbows

Crossbow Hunting

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wildwindom
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Post by wildwindom » Sat May 21, 2005 7:49 pm

TRAJECTORY

Again, I agree with the facts as you have represented them. I believe that the percieved range advantage of a crossbow could be an issue with converts. I have read multiple times that "my crossbow has rifle like groups at 60 yds...", etc.

A Crossbow is Not A bow
Hmmm...

Im sorry nybow not to get anything started but a crossbow is a bow i dont care how you look at it. And i know nobody on this forum would dare take a shot at any animal at 60 yards and where ever you read that then those guys need to get there head checked. Welcome to the forum :lol:
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Post by Digger » Sat May 21, 2005 7:55 pm

You seem set that crossbowsare not for you, that they are more gun than bow. Xbows have been around since 400 BC, I'm sure some one said, " Lets make it look like a gun so when they are invented in the 15 century or so New Yorkers can object to there use for hunting." My compound bow is less a long bow than a xbow is to a recurve. My bow is a 65 lb Martin Jaguar with 75 % let off, wrist strap, Whisker Bisciut rest, Trophy Ridge sight, 4 carbon rod stabilizer, hard cams, peep sight and mecanical release, I also use carbon Express fat shafts with 4 bladed broad heads. Certainly not your conventional bow My 1st compound the pro shop owner had me shooting 4 " bulls in less than 2 hours.
Theres nothing more to debate on this forum. Many of us have been banished from bow hunter sites for the same questions you are asking.
You are saying because I am disabled I am somewhat less of a hunter than you or your elitest brethern. I think you may be on the wrong forum.

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Post by Woody Williams » Sat May 21, 2005 7:58 pm

Nybow – “I don't believe that tournaments are a fair representation of the hunting population. At best, compounds and crossbows are equal, and in the hands of hunters (especially new hunters) I would venture a guess that crossbows would enjoy a slight advantage. As you point out, accuracy is a positive attribute.”

WW- You are correct in that more hunters just go hunting than participate in any tournaments. However, I can see of no other place we can compare accuracy side by side. Given that these participants are in it for the competition and try to do the very best that they can I would think they put as much, if not more, time in at the practice range than the average hunter- compound or crossbow.

nybow – “Again, I agree with the facts as you have represented them. I believe that the percieved range advantage of a crossbow could be an issue with converts. I have read multiple times that "my crossbow has rifle like groups at 60 yds...", etc.

An experienced bowhunter, such as yourself, would know that a great target grouping at 60yds has little to do with what is required for a clean kill at 25 yds. How do we instill that restraint to the newbies?”

WW- “Grouping” and killing are two very distinct different subjects. We’ve got some very good crossbowers on here, even a world champion, and they will tell you right off that they would never shoot at a deer at the same distances they can “10 ring”.

With any new hunting tool there is a learning curve. That is where the vertical bowhunters can be of a tremendous help to the budding crossbower by instilling in him/her that the crossbow is a short range hunting tool – just like a compound. Hopefully the learning curve will be very short. I hang out at Woody’s taxidermy in Georgia. This scary scenario was brought up by many an anti-crossbower in the original debates there. Since the legalization of crossbows in Georgia a few years back it has become a non-event..


nybow – “Dang, I have to give you a strike, here. Most compound bows, with all the gadgets like sights and quivers, probably top 5# easy. Not quite the6# of a crossbow, but then again, holding 5+# out at arms length is harder than 6# against your shoulder. If you've ever done it, you know I'm right here. Let's just ignore weight in the future, as each has his burden to bear.

WW- I was comparing bare bones sans accessories for both hunting tools. Throw on a stabilizer, quiver with 4 arrows, a scope, a level, a strap, etc. on the crossbow and the weight goes up too.

Jim C on here has done a few experiments on the holding up of both the compound and crossbow. Basically what Jim did was tape a laser pointer onto a compound and draw it while aiming at a bullseye at 20 yards. He held it for as long as he could while attempting to keep the pointer inside the dot. A friend counted how many times he wavered out of the bullseye and timed Jim as to how long he held the bow back.

Jim then repeated the same experiment with a crossbow.

Jim was able to hold the compound bow back longer and aim better than with the crossbow.

You can try this at home too. If you don’t have a crossbow use your shotgun. They weigh about the same

You see in pulling back the compound bow you are actually using both hands/arms in holding the bow up and back. It is a balance achieved by both. With the crossbow you are actually holding up the crossbow with one hand/arm.
.

nybow - I'll give you this one, but point out that even vertical bows cannot shoot 360 degrees.(My father in law is still fussin that I didn't clear a back lane on one of my stands last year).

WW- the first buck I killed with a crossbow almost walked as I could not get the crossbow into position because the buck was behind my treestand. If I had been using a compound bow I could have placed the bow upside the tree and made the shot at 20 yards. Piece of cake.

Fortunately for me and unfortunately for him the buck decided to walk out in front of my treestand. He is now looking down on me as I type this.

Lack of clearing is a problem with both hunting tools as any little twig can deflect an arrow no matter what launched it.


nybow - Ah, here's the rub.. This is where most arguements take off. Let's agree to talk though our differences.

I disagree that its a slight advantage. I (and probably you, in your vertical bow days) have been flat busted numerous times drawing my bow. ….

WW- Yes, haven’t we all. I’ve still been busted using my crossbow. I still have to raise into position to make the shot. All the tricks that deer do for vertical bowhunters they will still do for crossbowers too. The only difference in executing the shot is that a vertical bowhunter has to draw. That draw SHOULD be straight back made mostly behind the cover of the bow and quiver. That is unless the vertical bowhunter is seriously overbowed and has to horse it back.

But, I do believe that most “busts” for bowhunters come not from the draw, but from being scented. Should we also say that scent loc suits, cover scents, and 25 feet up a tree and downwind is unfair?


nybow – “The single hardest thing about bowhunting, besides getting a deer in range (which I will agree is just as tricky with a crossbow as a conventional bow) is drawing on the deer.”

WW- Any time you have a wired deer within range it is difficult to make a shot no matter what you are using.

nybow – “When you, as crossbowers, minimize that, you are alienating other bowhunters.”

WW- Not disputing the fact that drawing on a deer can be difficult, but it is a learned technique when and when not to draw.

The gist of it is that the kill percentages for crossbows and compound bows are equal in all states that have kept records on such things. If the "not having to draw" was a big advantage as some peope say it is then that crossbow percentage should be higher.

And that is where the rubber meets the road. The crossbowers are killing deer at the same rate as the compound bow hunters are.


nybow – “Yes, it has become easier for most to hold the weight due to letoff. But it is not nothing. The left arm hurts as much from holding the bow up as the right does from holding the string back. If anyone believes that high letoff means you can draw a compound when you first see a deer, and hold it till you get him, you are mistaken. There is a HUGE difference here, even with a compound.”

WW- The Concept99 compound has made it as close to nothing as it can get. Holding in place a 60 pound compound = 6/10s of a pound. Then it is only a matter of holding the bow up in a shooting position. The VERY same as holding a crossbow up into a shooting position, but the crossbow is heavier – remember Jim C’s experiment?

BTW - A Concept99 hunter can draw his bow back, point it at the ground and release the handle. The weight of the handle will keep the bow in a drawn position. He can then hang it from a bow hook and remove it in a drawn position when a deer approaches.


nybow – “We can agree that ease of mastery is down on the list of importance. What matters is that bowhunters are proficient when they hit the woods for deer hunting. In that respect, we should give the crossbow the nod.

While I disagree that a crossbow is only slightly easier to master than a compound, I feel it essentially irrelevant. Dedicated archers will hone their skills with whatever implement they choose. It is the less than dedicated we should be concerned with, regardless of weapon.”

WW- I agree. Unfortunately there are some that do not do what we would like. Since there are no “Practice Police” out there making sure everyone is proficient we can only apply peer pressure to the ones that come back with “I stuck one and he got away” remarks.

nybow – “You must admit it is not the conventional bow and arrow. It has similarities to both the bow and the gun.

Language doesn't help here...I realize that "bow" is in the name, but a speargun is not really a gun, either.”

WW- The crossbow was invented in the 4th century BC by the Chinese. The gun was not invented until the 12th century AD. It would be very difficult for a weapon that predates another to be even similar unless the latter copied off of the earlier one. IOW - the crossbow does not have a gun stock.. the gun has a crossbow stock.

What really matters is that the crossbow is classified as archery equipment, since that is what the seasons are called.

According to the Internal Revenue Service, the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service and all state wildlife agencies, crossbows are archery equipment.

- Crossbows and accessories that attach to crossbows as well as crossbow arrows are defined in the Internal Revenue Code that pertains to the archery excise tax.

- The US Fish & Wildlife Service receives the archery excise tax funds - of which about 10% are from crossbows - from the IRS and allocates those dollars to the state wildlife agencies through the Pittman Robertson program.

- State wildlife agencies receive archery excise tax dollars in amounts determined by a formula that includes the number of licensed hunters (including all those who hunt with crossbows) and the area of the state.


THE NAA - the OLDEST archery organization have recognized crossbows for about 60 years. The International Bowhunters Organization has had a crossbow division for numerous years AND growing every year. THE NFAA now recognizes crossbows at its VEGAS championships. Atlantic City had crossbow divisions for years, that shoot was recently acquired by the NFAA, but its crossbow division is several decades old.

The Archery Trade Association and its predecessor, the Archery Manufacturers Organization recognizes crossbows as archery equipment.

So does most retail dealers- almost every shop that sells archery equipment and guns have crossbows in the archery department, not the firearm counter. Go into Bass Pro or Cabela’s or Dicks and see where the crossbows are kept.

Every archery catalog I get from the retailers has crossbows in it. Bow and Arrow Magazine carries crossbow advertising.


nybow –“While I will admit that those states allowing crossbow during archery for physically challenged makes a case for its inclusion as archery, you must admit that the fact that they are beneficial for the physically challenged means that crossbows are somehow less challenging then conventional archery gear.”

WW- No, not at all. The benefit from using a crossbow by the physically challenged is from the assisted drawing of the weapon, not "the somehow less challenging". The reason that most physically challenged hunters cant use a vertical bow is they simply cannot draw it back. It is the physical need to “break the bow over” that most cannot do. Me trying to draw a 40 pound compound bow would put me to my knees. That does NOT translate to “somehow less challenging than conventional archery gear.”
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Convince me

Post by Big John » Sat May 21, 2005 8:15 pm

Nybow:

I am very glad you came on board prepared as well as you are.

This is why I like this Forum, good honest debate without aggression or uneducated response.

The point you make about Vert . Bows not being able to shoot 360%, they sure can shoot a much biiger radius up a tree than a Crossbow.

When drawing on a Deer up a tree at 25' in full Camo the Deer aren"t seeing much, with minimal to very slow movement both the Vert. Bow and the Crossbow need to be aimed and moved on to the target. So there isn"t to much minimizing going on.

The part I"m still working on is the Quote" You must admit the fact that they (crossbows) are beneficial to the physically challenged means that Crossbows are somehow less challenging than Conventional"

This has a whole different response, however my wife say"s I have to get off the computer today or else! :lol: :lol:

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Re: Convince me about crossbows

Post by Sandman » Sat May 21, 2005 8:52 pm

nybow wrote: I wanted to come to a crossbow site and find out why I should support that. I'm curious to see if there is a calm, rational way to debate it or if this is destined to become the same mudslinging, us vs them that every thread I have ever seen on crossbows turns out to be.

Convince me.
Jump on me lads if I am out of place here but the reason I belong to this forum and none of the other so called "bow" hunting forums is so I dont have to debate my choice of "archery equipment"!! I look forward to sitting down with a nice cup of joe and reading the days events from the members of excaliburcrossbow.com after a long day at work and/or a great day in the woods "archery hunting" with my Exomax.....If I want to wade into the battle of narrowmindedness and egos I will go to one of those other sites!! I apologize if I should have kept my mouth shut!! :wink:

Just my opinion from up here in the cheap seats!

After all this is "excaliburcrossbow.com"
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Post by nybow » Sat May 21, 2005 9:26 pm

Thanks for your replies.

To those who think I am being overly critical, I apologize if I am offending you.

I really am trying to get a better understanding of crossbow advocates.

Woody, thanks for your patience. I still have to disagree with holding a bow at full draw and holding a shotgun on point. In my opinion, this claim that there is no, or a small, difference is what irritates bowhunters so much.

Most of the bowhunters I know (myself included) work for months before the season to build strength in those draw and hold muscles. Even my 6'1", 210 varsity football son has to work at it. He was pretty surprised last year when after sitting motionless for nearly 3 hours in 20 something temperatures, he found he couldn't pull the bow back when a 6 pt mosied into range. Quite humbling! (I believe it was good for him :) )


Sandman - again my apologies if you are offended. I'm really not debating YOUR choice of weapons. If its legal, you should do it and I'm not judging. This has more to do with my state, where the crossbow battle is brewing. My bowhunting group, NYB, is staunchly opposed to any and all crossbow legalization. I'm determining my position.

nybow

Post by nybow » Sat May 21, 2005 9:44 pm

Digger - I apologize if I have offended you, that is certainly not my intent.

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Post by Digger » Sat May 21, 2005 9:50 pm

Sandmanwrote
Jump on me lads if I am out of place here but the reason I belong to this forum and none of the other so called "bow" hunting forums is so I dont have to debate my choice of "archery equipment"!! I look forward to sitting down with a nice cup of joe and reading the days events from the members of excaliburcrossbow.com after a long day at work and/or a great day in the woods "archery hunting" with my Exomax.....If I want to wade into the battle of narrowmindedness and egos I will go to one of those other sites!! I apologize if I should have kept my mouth shut!!

Just my opinion from up here in the cheap seats!

After all this is "excaliburcrossbow.com"
Keep your jaw going sandman, this guy is here to stir the pot, he asks for our opinion on the subject of xbows, then tells us we are wrong instead of saying thanks for your opinions and leaving. If I want to be insulted by so called "real hunters" I'll send La femme a note on xbows listen to his BS.

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Post by Woody Williams » Sat May 21, 2005 10:09 pm

nybow -"Woody, thanks for your patience. I still have to disagree with holding a bow at full draw and holding a shotgun on point. In my opinion, this claim that there is no, or a small, difference is what irritates bowhunters so much."

WW- Then I would suggest that you try Jim C's experiment for yourself. Only then will you be convinced.

nybow -"Most of the bowhunters I know (myself included) work for months before the season to build strength in those draw and hold muscles..."

WW- Unfortunately you are in a minority. Most compound bowhunters use a bow as a means to go hunting only and not an object of their affections, like you and I do. Most will hang up their compound bow at the end of the season and not pick it up again until a week or two before next season. Contrary to some beliefs, shooting a compound bow is not all that tough. It is like riding a bicycle. They might get a little rusty but they don't forget how to shoot.

This is NOT shooting a piece of traditional equipment where one does have to shoot regularly and keep the back muscles built up.

I totally disagree with your organization's stance on the physically challenged using crossbows. As any physically challenged individual can tell you it should be up to that person to decide which archery hunting tool is best for them to use. To mandate that a person has to use a mouth tab or a God forsaken Draw Loc to participate in archery season is beyond me.

The requirement of only quadriplegics can use a mouth operated crossbow keeps a LOT of hunters out of the woods. It is shame that your organization has bought into the PBS propoganda that the crossbow companies are using the physically challenged to get a foot in the door.

I appreciate the effort you are putting forth in deciding for yourself what is right about crossbows. If that is truly what you are doing.

I hope you are honest in that and not doing a scouting expedition to find out what crossbowers think so that you all can formulate plans to offset those facts if a pro-crossbow person presents them in New York.
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Post by wabi » Sat May 21, 2005 11:14 pm

Hi nybow!
Sorry to be getting into the discussion so late, but let me add my remarks.
You ask why let crossbows in, and I would counter with why not?
I live and hunt in Ohio where crossbows have been part of archery season for decades, and about all crossbows have really done to impact bowhunting is to allow many people who would otherwise be unable to ethically hunt get out there and enjoy hunting. I was bowhunting in the BC (before compounds) era, like Woody, and I continued to hunt with me stick & string after the introduction of compounds and the addition of crossbows to the list of allowable equipment. People who don't have time to become really proficient with a longbow or recurve, shooting "instinctively" could hunt with a compound with all the "gadgets" (like sights, releases, and letoff) or a crossbow. It didn't bother me, and it didn't interfere or impact my hunting. I tried a compound and didn't care for the heavy physical weight or the slowness of using sights, plus the need to know yardage. I tried a crossbow and it had some severe limitations, too. So I stuck with my longbow and enjoyed hunting as often as I could get into the woods.
Then one evening a few years ago I was in my backyard practicing (I shot my longbow almost daily) and a severe pain hit me in my left shoulder! Hmmmmm......... must have pulled something at work today, I'll put the bow away and give my shoulder a rest. A couple days later I tried again and the pain was too much for me to continue to shoot. I still had a couple months before deer season, so I wasn't too worried. But the pain persisted and the longbow had to become a wall decoration. Being a resident of a state where the crossbow is legal and well accepted as "archery" I went out and got a crossbow. I didn't do too well that first season, and soon gave up on the crossbow as a useful method of launching an arrow accurately and effectively. I didn't have medical insurance, and couldn't get a good answer as to my shoulder pain from the V-A medical people, but I just couldn't shoot my longbow without pain, and with pain I sure couldn't shoot well enough to hunt with it! I was ready to give up bowhunting!!!! It was then I found out a good hunting crossbow did exist and I got my first Excalibur. I used it to limit out on deer (2) the first season I used it! I had to adjust my hunting methods and strategy to fit the crossbow, but it did allow me to bowhunt, and the Excalibur was very accurate, and required minimal maintenance to keep it shooting well. I could actually kill deer, and be a part of the hunting world again!
I have since finally found the source of my shoulder problem - bone spurs. And I even found with the use of an anti-inflammatory medication (would you believe regular old ibuprofen) I can again shoot a lower draw weight longbow. As long as I restrict shooting sessions, and quit at the first sign of my shoulder acting up I can sling arrows at stumps and small game with no major pain or problems. But since I have had to drop to a reduced draw weight (even though it's still legal for deer hunting, but I consider it minimal - 45#) I will continue to hunt deer with the crossbow. I'm getting older and sitting in a tree stand or ground blind is easier than still hunting. The crossbow is legal, ethical, and accurate, and after all my goal is to make a perfect shot on every deer I launch an arrow at! Sure, it doesn't always work out that way, but why not use the bow best suited to the hunting method used for the sake of ethical bowhunting? If I were going to still hunt I might carry the longbow, but for stand hunting the crossbow is by far the best choice available for me! Shouldn't I be allowed to choose the bow that gives me the best chance of success? And why not allow all bowhunters in all states to have the right to make their own choices? If you can shoot a compound or a longbow more easily and accurately than a crossbow then you should use it if you want. But if you're unable to shoot a vertical bow accurately, or just like a crossbow better, then I think you should have the right to make your own choice! The recognition of the crossbow as "archery equipment" here in Ohio sure saved my bowhunting enjoyment from ending!
wabi

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Post by Doug » Sun May 22, 2005 12:22 am

I would encourage this gentleman to actually purchase an xbow..

And use it..

I never believed the anti-xbow lies-but when I actually owned, carried, and shot one..

It made the points all the more..

The xbow is just another type of bow..with some plusses, and some negatives as well..

There's plusses and minuses in all types of archery equipment..

nybow

Post by nybow » Sun May 22, 2005 6:31 am

WW -

I agree that the NYB stance on crossbows is very harsh. It is similar to the NRA (another group that I belong to but do not always agree with) in that they believe if they give an inch, the other side will take a mile.

It seems noone is that interested in compromise.

Wabi - thanks for your reply. You make good points.

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Post by Leo in Ga » Sun May 22, 2005 7:40 am

I am a Georgia crossbow hunter, a few years ago we had a fight with a small but vocal group of bow hunters that objected to the use of crossbows in "their" woods and "their" season. Well they lost and the crossbow has been an archery season weapon of choice for a couple of years, and contrary to the dire predictions the crossbow hunters have not depleted the deer herd nor have they shot any other hunters :wink:

You ask WHY, and I am assuming that you seriously want to know by the flavor of your post so far, so the best way I can answer you is with WHY NOT :)

The State woods and seasons belong to all of the State hunters that want to participate in an ethical and legal manner, not just a few elitist who for the most part oppose on selfish rather than moral reasons. :)
The real downside to this "fight" is that you end up with a divided group of hunters however it is finally resolved, and it will take a long time to heal the wounds, and meantime the real enemy (the anti's) are the real winner as they divided the hunters at a time that we need to unite rather than fight among ourselves:(

I hope this post helps you to understand my point of view. I do believe that crossbows are eventually going to be approved in all states as IMO there is just not a logical reason not to. :D
Have a good day and a great hunting season however you choose to hunt :D :D

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Post by Fur & Feathers » Sun May 22, 2005 8:10 am

nybow, I have never been able to participate. I gave it my best shot last year. Even tried some homemade modifications that didn't work out. Just ended up frustrated. Arthritis is now setting in from my car accident in 79. Add arthritis to my paralysis & you have a guy with limited years left to hunt. I sat in a stand last year with a camera during archery. It's just not the same. Saw some nice deer, but it didn't get my adrenalin going like hunting does.
Get out & Enjoy.

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Post by Woody Williams » Sun May 22, 2005 8:49 am

nybow wrote:WW -

I agree that the NYB stance on crossbows is very harsh. It is similar to the NRA (another group that I belong to but do not always agree with) in that they believe if they give an inch, the other side will take a mile.

It seems noone is that interested in compromise.

Wabi - thanks for your reply. You make good points.
Sorry I don't see the paralell between the New York Bowhunters and the NRA.

The New York Bowhunters are promoting discrimination against fellow hunters, the NRA isn't.

The New York Bowhunters might do good work in other areas, but this one would leave me cold and I could not belong to such a group.

Continued supprot of them is supporting this discrimination..
Woody Williams

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