I would not have the confidence to shoot any firearm at fifty yards with groups larger than three inches off a bench rest, especially when shooting at game animals.
When shooting off a rest you have the most control, and should therefore have the best results from shooting. Now take the three inch group into the field, and shoot sitting or offhand, that three inch group could easily open up to a six inch group.
I wasn't ready to take my .22 out into the field until I could hit a dime size target everytime at 25 yards and nothing bigger than a toonie at 50 yards. At the range with my big game rifles I practice shooting offhand at life size paper deer target with the vitals shown. I'm happy only when the bullets go where I want/need them to.
Black Powder
Moderator: Excalibur Marketing Dude
This is my last comment on this subject. I will not engage in any direct "quote for quote" chimp like activity, but I will say this:
I own many guns of all kinds of makes ( Ruger, Remington, some Winchesters, Baikal, Traditions, Lyman, an old Spanish shotgun, a BSA, and some old military models - British, Swedish, German, and Russian).
I can see the difference in qaulity and features of each one I own.
All I am saying is even an inexpensive gun like a Traditions can be accurate and shoot well without the refinement and features seen on more expensive guns.
...and until you have put a few hundred rounds through a Traditions muzzleloader, please save us all the hot air for those frosty mornings this fall.
I own many guns of all kinds of makes ( Ruger, Remington, some Winchesters, Baikal, Traditions, Lyman, an old Spanish shotgun, a BSA, and some old military models - British, Swedish, German, and Russian).
I can see the difference in qaulity and features of each one I own.
All I am saying is even an inexpensive gun like a Traditions can be accurate and shoot well without the refinement and features seen on more expensive guns.
...and until you have put a few hundred rounds through a Traditions muzzleloader, please save us all the hot air for those frosty mornings this fall.
Pete
The great outdoors is where I want to be.
The great outdoors is where I want to be.
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Mighty Mooser
- Posts: 309
- Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2003 9:30 pm
- Location: Lunenburg, On
O.K. I'll respond once more to the article from GoneHuntin..even though I said I wouldn't...
In all sincerity, thanks for the heads up GonHuntin!
My barrel is indeed marked 700 kp/cm2. I don't see why Traditions would say 150 grains is ok when 90 or even 80 grains would be more appropriate. Initially, their rifles were limited somewhere to 100 grains when they first made their appearance...but the barrels weren't as thick as those being produced as magnum models today. My gun has a 15/16" diameter. I believe they were initially 7/8" dia. or even less.
The article does raise doubt and questions, but if a gun was supposed to blow up, don't you think by now with the thousands of them out there, we would have lawsuits being filed against them...and many accidents reported? Gun dealers would be the first to here and the bad news would have flooded over the whole industry in days. With the recall that CVA did have, I doubt CVA or Traditions would want this to happen again and appropriate measures were put in place to avoid this. CVA barrel problem wasn't that it was blowing up, but severely loosing any hunting accuracy out of them.
My gun has remained accurate even after repeated shots at 150 grains, but in all honesty it's accuracy is best around 100 -110 grains which is what I mainly shoot.
Still your point is taken. That proof mark raises questions that I cannot answer without assuming or presuming facts that aren't made available to me.
In all sincerity, thanks for the heads up GonHuntin!
My barrel is indeed marked 700 kp/cm2. I don't see why Traditions would say 150 grains is ok when 90 or even 80 grains would be more appropriate. Initially, their rifles were limited somewhere to 100 grains when they first made their appearance...but the barrels weren't as thick as those being produced as magnum models today. My gun has a 15/16" diameter. I believe they were initially 7/8" dia. or even less.
The article does raise doubt and questions, but if a gun was supposed to blow up, don't you think by now with the thousands of them out there, we would have lawsuits being filed against them...and many accidents reported? Gun dealers would be the first to here and the bad news would have flooded over the whole industry in days. With the recall that CVA did have, I doubt CVA or Traditions would want this to happen again and appropriate measures were put in place to avoid this. CVA barrel problem wasn't that it was blowing up, but severely loosing any hunting accuracy out of them.
My gun has remained accurate even after repeated shots at 150 grains, but in all honesty it's accuracy is best around 100 -110 grains which is what I mainly shoot.
Still your point is taken. That proof mark raises questions that I cannot answer without assuming or presuming facts that aren't made available to me.
Pete
The great outdoors is where I want to be.
The great outdoors is where I want to be.
If I'm not mistaken, it was your "rhetoric" that started this debate.........you made the great proclamation.......but you can't defend it!bstout wrote:This is also my last post on this topic.
You guys are mixing apples with oranges. Your "questions" aren't deserving of answers. You are caught up in your own rhetoric. <yawn>
I believe it was you who wrote: "Their are a large number of people that can't find their way out of a wet paper bag."
I wet the bag down some more........ even tore a hole in the side to let light in........and you still can't find your way out!!!
Guess some people are just hopeless!!!
Hey people, I just bought a Traditions Pursuit Pro 3 days ago. I will put a direct quote from the owners manual. The Maximum load for the break open Muzzleloaders when using Pyrodex powder is 150 grains
The Maximum load for the break open muzzleloaders using Triple 7 is 130grains. I believe this is Traditions newest Break open muzzleloader and like I said before this came right out of the owners manual. BTW I would like to know any experiences people have had with this MuzzleLoader. It's all new to me!!! It's fun and I will shoot deer with it this year.
Camper
The Maximum load for the break open muzzleloaders using Triple 7 is 130grains. I believe this is Traditions newest Break open muzzleloader and like I said before this came right out of the owners manual. BTW I would like to know any experiences people have had with this MuzzleLoader. It's all new to me!!! It's fun and I will shoot deer with it this year.
Camper
Time and Patience the best advice my Grandfather gave me.
Camper
Camper
BTW I got to reading the posts again and I have to say that some fella's on here need to treat others with a little bit of respect. I'm not picking sides but there is ways of telling someone that there info is innacurate.
Were way better than that, That's why this forumn is so great!!!
Keep up the good discussions there's just no reason to be disrespectful.
Camper
Were way better than that, That's why this forumn is so great!!!
Keep up the good discussions there's just no reason to be disrespectful.
Camper
Time and Patience the best advice my Grandfather gave me.
Camper
Camper
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Mighty Mooser
- Posts: 309
- Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2003 9:30 pm
- Location: Lunenburg, On
From my first post it is a Renegade model 3 years old. Is $400 a good price, and what is the advantage, or disadvantage of this model? I wouldn't have a clue where to start even loading one, but since a new hunting season will be aloud here, I might have to learn fast, Any and all advice is appreciated!!!
When you whack them you better stack them!!!
MM
Where I live, that price would be too high. Since most people are using inlines, the side hammer guns just don't seem to have much value around here. Also, unless the seller took very good care of the rifle and was especially picky about cleaning it, I'd pass.......a used muzzleloader is often a gamble unless you know exactly how it was taken care of.......with the corrosiveness of black powder or pyrodex, pitted barrels are common on guns that haven't been cleaned very carefully and oiled very well.
If I wanted a side hammer rifle, and if the gun is in very good condition, especially inside the barrel, I wouldn't pay more then $250 US dollars.....and I'd offer less than that......
Where I live, that price would be too high. Since most people are using inlines, the side hammer guns just don't seem to have much value around here. Also, unless the seller took very good care of the rifle and was especially picky about cleaning it, I'd pass.......a used muzzleloader is often a gamble unless you know exactly how it was taken care of.......with the corrosiveness of black powder or pyrodex, pitted barrels are common on guns that haven't been cleaned very carefully and oiled very well.
If I wanted a side hammer rifle, and if the gun is in very good condition, especially inside the barrel, I wouldn't pay more then $250 US dollars.....and I'd offer less than that......
I'm not certain, but I'd be suspicious of a T/C Renegade that was 3 years old. I don't believe T/C was marketing the Renegade then. It may have been available through the custom shop though. Now they've re- introduced it as the Renegade Hunter with a single trigger. The older model was esentially a copy of the Hawken with a 1" barrel and blued iron hardware. It was a fine rifle, I've owned a couple (percussion & flint), but as GH said, the sidelocks are not big sellers now. Not sure of the exchange rate at the moment, but I'd think $150. - $200 US would be top dollar if it's in good condition.
wabi
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Mighty Mooser
- Posts: 309
- Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2003 9:30 pm
- Location: Lunenburg, On
Buy a .50 cal inline rifle that uses shotgun caps for ignition. Remington, TC, and Knight are great American brands. Traditions for imports.
Inlines far outsell side hammer guns and allow for easy scope mounting. They feel more like a regular rifle that you are probably using now. Flintlocks are for purists that want to be reincarnated Daniel Boone's. You need a 'coon hat for one of those! ...and "Hangfire" will become your new nickname.
A great muzzleloeader book is Sam Fadala's "The Complete Muzzleloader Handbook". It'll cover everything you ever wanted to know about muzzleoading...and more.
Inlines far outsell side hammer guns and allow for easy scope mounting. They feel more like a regular rifle that you are probably using now. Flintlocks are for purists that want to be reincarnated Daniel Boone's. You need a 'coon hat for one of those!
...and "Hangfire" will become your new nickname.A great muzzleloeader book is Sam Fadala's "The Complete Muzzleloader Handbook". It'll cover everything you ever wanted to know about muzzleoading...and more.
Pete
The great outdoors is where I want to be.
The great outdoors is where I want to be.