That's an interesting concept. Your workmanship appears excellent. I hope you have looked into patent possibilities.
What limits have you encountered in bolt speed? The reduction in bolt flex should result in a speed gain for the same weight of bolt and bow draw weight. What limits have you found in draw weight?
I would like to see the largest cut possible before you encounter sacrifice in accuracy. What limited your size in fletching/cut? Was it problems in bolt flight or an assumed limit on need for cut size?
Your system would be legal in my jurisdiction. It would be classified the same any any xbow.
As far as the concern about cutting yourself while extracting bolts from a target, there should be no reason why target bolts with anti-penetrating tips and non-sharpened vanes couldn't be available.
Would you like more accuracy from your Excalibur?
-
designer 2
- Posts: 73
- Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 5:56 pm
ch312
What I mean by being tougher than a shotgun is that the shot is only going a quarter of the speed of a shotgun and you have to be quicker than if you were using a shotgun. No time for error. Much more of a challenge. And----It's a riot!!!!!!!! to hit a moving target with a bow.
What I mean by being tougher than a shotgun is that the shot is only going a quarter of the speed of a shotgun and you have to be quicker than if you were using a shotgun. No time for error. Much more of a challenge. And----It's a riot!!!!!!!! to hit a moving target with a bow.
My mind is made up. Do not confuse me with the facts.
-
designer 2
- Posts: 73
- Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 5:56 pm
Kendo kid:
I have shot many deer with it. If you are paying attention while shooting, you will see an instant blood spurt where the arrow goes in. Animals do not go far. Not to compare this arrow with a bullet, but you don't always see where a bullet hits either. It is just that the accuracy is so good, and if the conditions are right, you will know where you hit.
I have shot many deer with it. If you are paying attention while shooting, you will see an instant blood spurt where the arrow goes in. Animals do not go far. Not to compare this arrow with a bullet, but you don't always see where a bullet hits either. It is just that the accuracy is so good, and if the conditions are right, you will know where you hit.
My mind is made up. Do not confuse me with the facts.
-
designer 2
- Posts: 73
- Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 5:56 pm
Hi5
I have a patent awarded. Thanks for the complement.
I have tested a standard bolt at 60 yards. It lost 30 feet per second @ 60yds. The 6" arrow of equal weight and speed only lost 5 FPS @ 60 yards. The standard bolt dropped 100 inches total and the 6" arrow dropped 80" (relative figures) 20% flatter shooting.
Cut size can virtually be as large as you want because the blades are on the back of the arrow. That is where you want the drag of the arrow anyway. Like a target arrow for instance.
For target arrows of this type, The blades would not be fully sharp. As far as what target to use is simple. I use a 6" thick piece of 8 pound ethafoam to pin my bullseye on. Behind it is a promat simulated kevlar type back drop. All are only 24" x 24". The ethafoam slows the arrows down. They then hit the back drop and fall to the ground (1 foot drop) You can shoot 20 arrows or more per round and not damage any.
I have a patent awarded. Thanks for the complement.
I have tested a standard bolt at 60 yards. It lost 30 feet per second @ 60yds. The 6" arrow of equal weight and speed only lost 5 FPS @ 60 yards. The standard bolt dropped 100 inches total and the 6" arrow dropped 80" (relative figures) 20% flatter shooting.
Cut size can virtually be as large as you want because the blades are on the back of the arrow. That is where you want the drag of the arrow anyway. Like a target arrow for instance.
For target arrows of this type, The blades would not be fully sharp. As far as what target to use is simple. I use a 6" thick piece of 8 pound ethafoam to pin my bullseye on. Behind it is a promat simulated kevlar type back drop. All are only 24" x 24". The ethafoam slows the arrows down. They then hit the back drop and fall to the ground (1 foot drop) You can shoot 20 arrows or more per round and not damage any.
My mind is made up. Do not confuse me with the facts.
designer 2,
Your eyes are much better than mine to be able to see blood spurt in low light conditions at 30 yards. Man what a gene pool. You miss the point from a Consumer. If you are going to develop something please consider the rest of the humble univers with less than perfect sight, shooting in less than perfect light conditions through shooting lanes that were not cleared with a lawn mower. Sorry I brought the point up.
Kendo kid
Your eyes are much better than mine to be able to see blood spurt in low light conditions at 30 yards. Man what a gene pool. You miss the point from a Consumer. If you are going to develop something please consider the rest of the humble univers with less than perfect sight, shooting in less than perfect light conditions through shooting lanes that were not cleared with a lawn mower. Sorry I brought the point up.
Kendo kid
The only ex who has a piece of my heart is Excalibur
-
designer 2
- Posts: 73
- Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 5:56 pm
Kendo Kid
Lets be nice here.
Heck, I'm 55 years old and have to wear glasses. It the heat of the moment (the shot) everything happens very fast as you know. It is difficult in a lot of cases to see exactly where your arrow hit. That's why we practice to build our own confidance so we have a much better chance of hitting where we are aiming to insure a humane kill. With this arrow though, unless you hit a major bone, the arrow always comes out. Instant blood trail.
Lets be nice here.
Heck, I'm 55 years old and have to wear glasses. It the heat of the moment (the shot) everything happens very fast as you know. It is difficult in a lot of cases to see exactly where your arrow hit. That's why we practice to build our own confidance so we have a much better chance of hitting where we are aiming to insure a humane kill. With this arrow though, unless you hit a major bone, the arrow always comes out. Instant blood trail.
My mind is made up. Do not confuse me with the facts.
-
Woody Williams
- Posts: 6440
- Joined: Wed Oct 09, 2002 5:07 pm
This would not be legal in my state AND probably not a bunch of other states either.
Indiana and most other states's regulations say that "the arrow must be TIPPED with a broadhead", etc, etc,etc..
Some enterprising folks tried these 'blades as vanes' arrows with vertical arrows and a couple of out west states changed their regs to make them illegal.
In those case the shooters wanted long range fast shooting. In those cases the arrows were short, but not this short.
In those cases I think the DNRs were wise to outlaw them as if a person hit heavy bone the blade/vanes would not even get close to doing the job. The deer/elk/ whatever would end up with a size .22 hole in them.
I am NOT saying that these particular "arrows" should or should not be banned.. but you've got a very uphill climb to get it past the DNRs..
I'll say another thing ... we have enough trouble from the anti-crossbow people calling our crossbow arrows "bolts" and not archery equipment without a shorter version that bears very little to no resemblance to an arrow. It looks more like a dart for a board game.
What state/province are you killing these deer in?
Indiana and most other states's regulations say that "the arrow must be TIPPED with a broadhead", etc, etc,etc..
Some enterprising folks tried these 'blades as vanes' arrows with vertical arrows and a couple of out west states changed their regs to make them illegal.
In those case the shooters wanted long range fast shooting. In those cases the arrows were short, but not this short.
In those cases I think the DNRs were wise to outlaw them as if a person hit heavy bone the blade/vanes would not even get close to doing the job. The deer/elk/ whatever would end up with a size .22 hole in them.
I am NOT saying that these particular "arrows" should or should not be banned.. but you've got a very uphill climb to get it past the DNRs..
I'll say another thing ... we have enough trouble from the anti-crossbow people calling our crossbow arrows "bolts" and not archery equipment without a shorter version that bears very little to no resemblance to an arrow. It looks more like a dart for a board game.
What state/province are you killing these deer in?
Woody Williams
We have met the enemy and he is us - Pogo Possum
Hunting in Indiana at [size=84][color=Red][b][url=http://huntingindiana.proboards52.com]HUNT-INDIANA[/url][/b][/color][/size]
We have met the enemy and he is us - Pogo Possum
Hunting in Indiana at [size=84][color=Red][b][url=http://huntingindiana.proboards52.com]HUNT-INDIANA[/url][/b][/color][/size]
-
designer 2
- Posts: 73
- Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 5:56 pm
Woody:
Hard to judge something without all the facts.
The 6" arrow is 11/32 in diameter which is 34 caliber in simple terms. The cutting diameter is 1-3/16". Believe me, they make a big whole in the animal!
As far as legal arrow length goes, many states have adopted a 20" arrow length minimum because if it were any shorter, the dnr's, etc would not be collecting excise tax money. If these arrows are produced, the tax will be paid on them anyways.
Keep in mind,, The system shoots standard bolts as well WITHOUT changing a thing. (of course with the exception of 4 fletch instead of 3)
Hard to judge something without all the facts.
The 6" arrow is 11/32 in diameter which is 34 caliber in simple terms. The cutting diameter is 1-3/16". Believe me, they make a big whole in the animal!
As far as legal arrow length goes, many states have adopted a 20" arrow length minimum because if it were any shorter, the dnr's, etc would not be collecting excise tax money. If these arrows are produced, the tax will be paid on them anyways.
Keep in mind,, The system shoots standard bolts as well WITHOUT changing a thing. (of course with the exception of 4 fletch instead of 3)
My mind is made up. Do not confuse me with the facts.
-
Woody Williams
- Posts: 6440
- Joined: Wed Oct 09, 2002 5:07 pm
Your state of Illinois says..
Minimum arrow length is 20 inches, and broadheads must be used. Broadheads may have fixed or expandable blades, but they must have a minimum 7/8 inch diameter when fully opened. Broadheads with fixed blades must be metal or flint-, chert-, or obsidian-knapped; broadheads with expandable blades must be metal.[/b]
I don't think your "blades as vanes" qualifies as a "broadhead'. Like I said good luck getting DNRs to change that..
The blades as vanes will only do damage IF the penetrate far enough in to get the blades to work. You've got 4 or 5 inches that have to break bone before the business end can even start to get into the vitals.
With a real broadhead that business end will be inside the deer when your blades will be hanging up on the bone going in. I've seen numerous deer killed by broadheads that hit shoulder bone and still get 5 or so inches inside the deer to kill it.
Again.. where did you kill those deer that you said that you killed with this prototype?
Minimum arrow length is 20 inches, and broadheads must be used. Broadheads may have fixed or expandable blades, but they must have a minimum 7/8 inch diameter when fully opened. Broadheads with fixed blades must be metal or flint-, chert-, or obsidian-knapped; broadheads with expandable blades must be metal.[/b]
I don't think your "blades as vanes" qualifies as a "broadhead'. Like I said good luck getting DNRs to change that..
The blades as vanes will only do damage IF the penetrate far enough in to get the blades to work. You've got 4 or 5 inches that have to break bone before the business end can even start to get into the vitals.
With a real broadhead that business end will be inside the deer when your blades will be hanging up on the bone going in. I've seen numerous deer killed by broadheads that hit shoulder bone and still get 5 or so inches inside the deer to kill it.
Again.. where did you kill those deer that you said that you killed with this prototype?
Woody Williams
We have met the enemy and he is us - Pogo Possum
Hunting in Indiana at [size=84][color=Red][b][url=http://huntingindiana.proboards52.com]HUNT-INDIANA[/url][/b][/color][/size]
We have met the enemy and he is us - Pogo Possum
Hunting in Indiana at [size=84][color=Red][b][url=http://huntingindiana.proboards52.com]HUNT-INDIANA[/url][/b][/color][/size]
-
designer 2
- Posts: 73
- Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 5:56 pm
Woody:
Wow, You are doing your research.
Also sounds to me like you are against progress.
You are right. The arrow length in Illinois is 20 inches. But it wan't that way a while back. I have been making bows and arrows since 1983. Long before any regs like that. I had said I had taken a lot of deer with the arrow. Not that prototype in the photo. Besides, crossbows are illegal in Illinois as well. I have taken deer in Wisconsin and OHIO along with russian boar.
Crazy and different things happen when you shoot at or hit a shoulder. You are suppose to aim at the lungs or heart, don't you think?
Physics is physics and no one will change that. The more blades you have and the bigger the cutting diameter, the less you are going to penetrate. In other words, 4 blades must cut twice as much bone as two blades. A solid steel tip starts the hole to guide the blades. I have a lot of experience with the arrow. Unless I hit major bone, It has always penetrated the animal completely. Once the arrow has left the aminal, any energy left is a waste or overkill or whatever you want to call it.
Really, when you get complete penetration when you hit the animal where you are supposed to, what difference does it make where the blades are on the arrow? For the best accuracy, you want the drag of the arrow on the back.
Wow, You are doing your research.
Also sounds to me like you are against progress.
You are right. The arrow length in Illinois is 20 inches. But it wan't that way a while back. I have been making bows and arrows since 1983. Long before any regs like that. I had said I had taken a lot of deer with the arrow. Not that prototype in the photo. Besides, crossbows are illegal in Illinois as well. I have taken deer in Wisconsin and OHIO along with russian boar.
Crazy and different things happen when you shoot at or hit a shoulder. You are suppose to aim at the lungs or heart, don't you think?
Physics is physics and no one will change that. The more blades you have and the bigger the cutting diameter, the less you are going to penetrate. In other words, 4 blades must cut twice as much bone as two blades. A solid steel tip starts the hole to guide the blades. I have a lot of experience with the arrow. Unless I hit major bone, It has always penetrated the animal completely. Once the arrow has left the aminal, any energy left is a waste or overkill or whatever you want to call it.
Really, when you get complete penetration when you hit the animal where you are supposed to, what difference does it make where the blades are on the arrow? For the best accuracy, you want the drag of the arrow on the back.
My mind is made up. Do not confuse me with the facts.
Designer2,
I think I will stick with regular bolts but it is a pretty neat concept. If it weren't for people trying new ideas we would still be living in the dark ages, so good for you. Keep up the R&D, as you can see from this post, if nothing else it's generated a heck of a lot of interest and attention.
I would really enjoy seeing any updates in the future.
Partikle
I think I will stick with regular bolts but it is a pretty neat concept. If it weren't for people trying new ideas we would still be living in the dark ages, so good for you. Keep up the R&D, as you can see from this post, if nothing else it's generated a heck of a lot of interest and attention.
I would really enjoy seeing any updates in the future.
Partikle
-
designer 2
- Posts: 73
- Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 5:56 pm
Have you tried bow draw weight in the Exomax range?
What was the top end chronographing?
Heck, here in Manitoba, xbow hunters are allowed only to hunt in the muzzle loader or centrefire seasons. Short bolts wouldn't make things worse!
I'm still toying in my mind with what Woody has been saying. I'm not yet persuaded that a conventional bolt and broadhead would be that much of an advantage when striking bone.
I can visualize how much more penetration that short bolt would give in comparison to conventional bolts. Also, I could visualize that they might divert more easily around solid bone than a longer shafted model.
The Exomax has so much power that it could easily handle more cutting edge. A larger cut improves the prospect of a quicker or more certain kill. I would be interested in your product if it could handle a significantly larger cutting diameter, especially if there is no sacrifice in accuracy.
One thing for sure, gentlemen, is that the bow quiver would be a dainty thing!
What was the top end chronographing?
Heck, here in Manitoba, xbow hunters are allowed only to hunt in the muzzle loader or centrefire seasons. Short bolts wouldn't make things worse!
I'm still toying in my mind with what Woody has been saying. I'm not yet persuaded that a conventional bolt and broadhead would be that much of an advantage when striking bone.
I can visualize how much more penetration that short bolt would give in comparison to conventional bolts. Also, I could visualize that they might divert more easily around solid bone than a longer shafted model.
The Exomax has so much power that it could easily handle more cutting edge. A larger cut improves the prospect of a quicker or more certain kill. I would be interested in your product if it could handle a significantly larger cutting diameter, especially if there is no sacrifice in accuracy.
One thing for sure, gentlemen, is that the bow quiver would be a dainty thing!
"Gun Control Laws"--trying to nag criminals into submission.