Choosing the right shotgun

Grizzly Adam · Post by **Grizzly Adam** » Wed Dec 03, 2008 11:53 am

bstout wrote:
Mike P wrote:Remington 870 Express ... Nice gun for the price. Very functional and takes a beating. Not near the old Wingmasters in quality but pretty good none the less.
You've got me wondering, Mike if the factory Remington Customer Service person was yanking me around about the 870 Express. He told me that the difference was more appearance than performance. He went on to say that all 870's started out life as an Express model, then they would convert them over to Wingmasters by polishing certain surfaces (expensive human labor he put it). He also stated I could convert my Express into a Wingmaster by doing the labor myself; i.e. disassemble and have at the surfaces with steel wool.

Every longtime shotgunner that I know disagrees with this yet they can't seem to tell me the difference between the Express model and the Wingmaster other than the generalization of the Wingmaster being of superior quality to the Express.

It's the name, Bob!

WINGMASTER

Don't think Remington didn't know the marketing power of choosing a snazzy name when they brought out the 870!

Automobile manufacturers have been doing it for decades!

With all due respect to our 870 owners and fans, I daresay the Remington rep was telling you the truth. I think the major difference between the currently common Express and the older Wingmasters is indeed final polish of mating parts and finish ... all price point related.

Of course, the better the polish on mating parts, the tighter a weapon is and the smoother a weapon functions, and tactile feel is vastly improved ... but the advantage is largely in the mental associations produced rather than in any real field utility.

Indeed, in the roughest sort of field use, a little looseness is critical to continued function (think of the SKS and other battle rifles).

Other than that, I believe that the legend of the Wingmaster versus the Express largely comes down to the perceived superiority of a slicker, prettier weapon over a rougher, utilitarian weapoon ... and that NAME.

OK ... now let the war begin.

Remember, guys, before you tear me up too bad ... this thread is all about opinions!

Now ... let 'em fly!

DropTine · Post by **DropTine** » Wed Dec 03, 2008 11:57 am

LOL Grizz!

mikej · Post by **mikej** » Wed Dec 03, 2008 4:01 pm

pyper what is parkerized

mikej · Post by **mikej** » Wed Dec 03, 2008 4:03 pm

mike p do you find it hard to see that scope on the one barrell it looks a little more forward than normal. i ask becuase i would like to have my 120 ranger tapped for a scope and that looks like an easy way to do it if you can see the scope good

TPM · Post by **TPM** » Wed Dec 03, 2008 4:53 pm

My Itica is almost identical to the one in your picture Mike, same stock, mine is parkerized and has a shorter barrel. I hear it is a police issue, it is also stamped Ithica 87, a rare one.

Pyd, your Ithaca 87 is basically the same in design as a 37. Back in the late 1980's (1988 I believe) Ithaca was bought out and their name as changed to "Ithaca Aquisition Corp". The new company decided to change the model designation from 37 to 87 probably an attempt to breath some new life into the marketing of it. Your gun is actually a Model 87 M&P which stands for Military and Police. It came with a Parkerized finish, short barrel and a 3" chamber. The biggest market for these guns was police forces but a number were sold on the civilian market as well. They aren't very common and in time will become quite a collectors item. Hold on to it!

OK ... now let the war begin.

Hey Grizz.... INCOMING!!!

In my opinion the difference between the Express and Wingmaster is more than fit and finish. The Wingmaster has the Light Contour barrel and that really does have an affect on how the gun handles. Most of the pump gun offerings on today's market are pretty reliable and will provide years of service. From a reliability stand point I would be comfortable carry any modern pump gun into the field. Handling, on the other hand, is not equal if you're comparing the Express to the Wingmaster and for me handling is the #1 priority when choosing a shotgun. In order for a shotgun to handle well the stock must fit properly and the gun must be well balanced. Try a synthetic stocked Express with a 28" barrel along side a Wingmaster with a 28" barrel and you will feel the difference. With good handling comes confidence and pure joy in shooting. I'm willing to pay extra for that.
It's true, the Wingmaster basically starts out like an Express, it's just fitted and finished to a much higher degree. Again, important stuff in my opinion. Measure the trigger pull on an out-of-the-box Express and you'll come in anywhere between 3 and 8 lbs.. Try the same with a Wingmaster and you'll probably come in more consistantly in the 3-4 lb range. Check out the chambers on a number of Expresses and you will see anything from good to horrible in the finish. The Wingmaster, on the other hand, will be polished to a higher degree and far less likely to have extraction problems. Also, I don't care how much you polish the plastic trigger gaurds on the newer Expresses they won't turn into steel like the Wingmaster's.

As I mentioned earlier, the Express is a good solid gun but a few hours on the bench can make it a much better one. Having said that if I had the money it would be a Wingmaster hands down. I don't view my shotsguns as tools. They are an extension of me especially when wing shooting. Fit and finish are as important as function and so is pride of ownership and I'm willing to pay for it.

TPM · Post by **TPM** » Wed Dec 03, 2008 4:56 pm

Parkerizing

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parkerizing

Grizzly Adam · Post by **Grizzly Adam** » Wed Dec 03, 2008 5:19 pm

TPM wrote: Hey Grizz.... INCOMING!!!

In my opinion the difference between the Express and Wingmaster is more than fit and finish.

The Wingmaster has ...

... if you're comparing the Express to the Wingmaster...

Try a synthetic stocked Express with a 28" barrel along side a Wingmaster ...

It's true, the Wingmaster ...

Try the same with a Wingmaster ...

The Wingmaster, on the other hand ...

... they won't turn into steel like the Wingmaster's ...

Having said that if I had the money it would be a Wingmaster hands down ...

Wow, TPM. I'm embarrassed for ya, man.

See what I was saying?

It's that name:

WINGMASTER

Gets men all excited.

Grizzly Adam · Post by **Grizzly Adam** » Wed Dec 03, 2008 5:22 pm

TPM wrote: Hey Grizz.... INCOMING!!! In my opinion the difference between the Express and Wingmaster is more than fit and finish.

OK, Bud ... I'll gladly take that shelling!

Indeed, I mostly had durability and reliability in mind, but I didn't specifically say so ... your points are both valid and well taken.

I concur that pointability and fit are the name of the game in shotgunning, and I grant that extraction and trigger pull matter.

I was not careful enough in my wording, and I humbly accept your bombardment, Sir.

I still think you've got a thing for that name, though.

Mike P · Post by **Mike P** » Wed Dec 03, 2008 5:35 pm

mikej wrote:mike p do you find it hard to see that scope on the one barrell it looks a little more forward than normal. i ask becuase i would like to have my 120 ranger tapped for a scope and that looks like an easy way to do it if you can see the scope good

Mike J, the scope on that Hastings rifled slug barrel is a long eye relief scope. In my opinion it is the ultimate set up for my slug gun.

With the long eye relief I am able to "get on" or acquire the target (deer) much faster then a standard relief scope.

I have tried all types of slug guns and different scope combinations over the years. And every year I hunt with that 870 and the Hastings barrel.

mikej · Post by **mikej** » Wed Dec 03, 2008 5:50 pm

thanks for the reply mike p i will look into them are they easily available? expensive?

TPM · Post by **TPM** » Wed Dec 03, 2008 8:53 pm

Griz, somehoW I get the idea that you're thiNkinG I just buy the naMe. I sAy Some people need To gEt a gRip. Nothing could be fuRther from the trUth. LEt'S get with it now.

Pydpiper · Post by **Pydpiper** » Wed Dec 03, 2008 9:08 pm

TPM, I knew some of that, but not all. Thanks for the information on that gun, it has been a treat to try to beat it up.

My first gun was my 870 Express, full camo combo, rifled/cantilevered barrel and a long smooth bore, isn't that old either, I needed another one, it only made sense. I bought an old, traded in 870 Wingmaster, after a while it turned out the gun was a 60's gun and it was my uncle who traded it in, he had the history of the guy before him.. That gun was a tramp, it would cycle any ammo and loved to shoot, did it a million times, was so smooth compared to my new Express. It didn't take me long to realize it wasn't a difference in craftsmanship as much as just being wore in.
I tore them both down and put every part of that Wingmaster I could in to that Express receiver, in the end I had a smoother Express, but it still wasn't the Wingmaster before I stripped it.
I love that Express.

ch312 · Post by **ch312** » Wed Dec 03, 2008 10:24 pm

i bought my 870 express super mag 5 years ago id say. that thing has been dropped in sand, mud, snow, and water. has been frozen solid during freezing rain, hit hard a few times from falls (rabbit hunting in thick brush), and shot everything from light 1oz loads to headache causing 3 1/2" #4 buck through a full choke.

this gun is unstoppable and hasnt let me down yet.

with the rifled barrel i can shoot 3" groups at 125 yards all day long too

mikej · Post by **mikej** » Wed Dec 03, 2008 10:29 pm

now that is one bad ass lookin shotgun

Rhubarbe · Post by **Rhubarbe** » Wed Dec 03, 2008 10:52 pm

Thanks guys, I'm still undecided but there's nothing like hearing your stories

I'll simply go to my local gun shop and put my hands on it... I'll try the nova, 870, BPS and maybe the stoeger p-350 since they all look great.