NEW SPEED XBOW ON THE WAY ?

[Matthias72]

I wrote this post some days ago on our Venatores forum:

In theory as for vertical bows, the compound system cans store much more elastic energy.That means a major arrow speed. We saw Stryker crossbow for example, is one of the new crossbows that uses the real cams system potential. Actually only Stryker first, Great plains and new Phantom (but much less than Stryker) utilize well the cams potential. But It is really necessary this amazing speed? On my opinion not for three reasons: first major speed means major penetration on the cube target: we use 99% our crossbow in pratice (normally) and actually the better cube targets have difficult to resist with a kinetic energy more than 16kgm (116ftp)...Striker has more than 21kgm (152ftp). You imagine if your arrows would disappear always inside the cube complitely? After how many shoots you must to change the vanes? And the pulling out? Inside an animal 16kgm of kinetic energy (as an Exomax with a 620 grains arrow) are sufficent to pass through an elephant...you need more energy in hunting?
Second: more speed means that you need much more precise arrows. But aluminum could well resist to the continous impact with targets with 21kgm of kinetic energy? Probably not so much. Carbon? Probably better but carbon is less precise than aluminum and with these amazing energy the risk of fessures inside carbon is high. Amazing speed means you need a perfect and very small broadhead or a mechanic bradhead, but in this case a mechanic broadhead penetrate less so you can't use complitely the arrow kinetic energy potential; and if a mechanic broadhead hurts a bone? Could it resist with 152ftp of kinetic energy?
Third:the speed helps you to hit the animal reducing the flight time (and the time for the animal to move). But the difference between an arrow of 400 fps and one of 300fps is always much more less than sound speed so the noise will arrive always much more before than your arrow. You can gain only 2-3 meters of range. Instead major arrow speed means much more flight noises: the animal can noticed much more better the arrow arrival and the string jumping reaction can be much more increased.
For all this reasons I think that the hunting perfection is a crossbow that allows a kinetic energy close to 115 ftp with speed near 300 fps. That is possible using an Exomax with a 600/620grains arrow or a Ten Point Phantom or a Ten Point Pro-Elite HP. But can these two compound have the same precision than an Exomax? I didn't test them yet so I can't answer. But we can see the competition results: Exomax won all championships on the world: if we begin to see other brands that is a signal.

regards

Matthias

[mdcrossbow]

bstout, I agree with you we are in the same ball park it sounds like. I hunt the suburbs of DC. between homes. In years past with slower bows a 30 yard open field shot was out of the question on a mature deer. I do like the exocet 200 for my needs.

[sumner4991]

bstout . . .OK, I understand the point you were trying to make now. However, having a bow with higher speed doesn't automatically make it less accurate. If you have a bow with a speed that can't be matched to an arrow, then you lose accuracy . . .that, my friend, is exactly where the industry is right now. They have bows with speeds surpassing the limits of the arrows. Just a matter of time and they will make the arrows. Unless, the bow manufacturers can't sell the speed, then there is no demand. Right now we probably have the bow manufacturers telling the arrow manufacturers to make better arrows and they can sell more speed and the arrow manufacturers are telling the bow manufacturers that if they sold more speedy bows, then they would make the arrow . . .

Added . . .just wanted to clarify, I'm consistantly hitting 1.5" groups from 30 yards with my Exomax shooting slightly over 350 FPS with target tips using the Gold Tip Laser II's. I'm not using a sand bag, just taking rest from my Weber Grill or leaning against a tree. Thats accurate, no complaints. The issue I have is with the broadheads . . .they need to be better. There are some good ones, but, there is a lot of room for improvement. I'm hoping to see some before the fall season.

[BigTiny]

I am really new to crossbows and archery in general, but it seems to me that the faster your arrow flies, the more perfect your projectile needs to be to maintain accuracy. I have a Vixen that I can consistently hit very small targets with at distances out to 40 yds. That is using the bolts and broadheads that came in my right stuff package. No special equipment other than the $3 string silencers. So I guess I just don't understand the need for faster and faster bows. It seems like it would needlessly complicate a simple and effective system for a marginal advantage in the speed of the projectile. If I am wrong about this, please enlighten me.

[mdcrossbow]

bstout, I hunt a private farm for 20 years and took over 400 deer mainly on crop damage. This 90+ acre farm was surrounded by large homes.
I've also contracted 2 farms in Va that are open to hunt and a large lease in Southern Md. 550 acres which is thick cover. But hunting the subdivisions is a totally different kind of hunting. You have to be 150 yards from the nearest dwelling if you don't have permission near that dwelling. I get permission from all the neighbors to either hunt or have access to tracking. I hunt in the afternoons so when I pull deer out it is under the cover of darkness so the kids and anyone else who would be opposed to killing deer don't have to see the carcass.
My shots are limited to 15 yard max and spine shots are taken allot.

As far as adapting to suburban hunting it's doesnt take much the hardest thing to find is a good tree to climb which is out of the way of the homeowner seeing you while your in the tree but sometimes it can't be helped.

I invited a friend up from SC to hunt a back yard where the we were getting paid to kill the deer. When my fiend got here he was very skeptical about even seeing deer. Then as if on Que the movement started and in 4 days we took 18 deer.

My friend now hunts in Md for deer only because he Say's that even the public hunting here is better than any place he has ever been.

[sumner4991]

Big Tiny . . .the greatest advantage to more speed 25 years ago was the difference in trajectory. The flatter the trajectory, the more room for human error when estimating yardage. However, in today's environment, the speed advantage is falling victim to the Law of Diminishing Returns. The extra speed isn't making the trajectory much flatter in the average hunter's shot range. Therefore, unless the broadheads are made to shoot accurate out of the high speed bow up to 75-100 yards, then there is no special advantage for higher speeds . . .at least in my opinion. If they come out with a bow/arrow combo that can shoot accurate and flat up to 75+ yards, then look out. That speed will sell.

Of course, then we will have the heated debate about tradition and such. I'm OK hunting with my bow . . .if somebody else wants to use a "High Power" bow, that's their business. Just like I enjoy shooting my .270, if the guy on the other side of the hill is shooting a 7MM, I'm OK with that. The skill is still in the hunt . . .you have to see them before you can shoot them. Right now, there is plenty of meat to go around.

[awshucks]

Big Tiny . . .the greatest advantage to more speed 25 years ago was the difference in trajectory. The flatter the trajectory, the more room for human error when estimating yardage. However, in today's environment, the speed advantage is falling victim to the Law of Diminishing Returns. The extra speed isn't making the trajectory much flatter in the average hunter's shot range. Therefore, unless the broadheads are made to shoot accurate out of the high speed bow up to 75-100 yards, then there is no special advantage for higher speeds . . .at least in my opinion. If they come out with a bow/arrow combo that can shoot accurate and flat up to 75+ yards, then look out. That speed will sell.

Of course, then we will have the heated debate about tradition and such. I'm OK hunting with my bow . . .if somebody else wants to use a "High Power" bow, that's their business. Just like I enjoy shooting my .270, if the guy on the other side of the hill is shooting a 7MM, I'm OK with that. The skill is still in the hunt . . .you have to see them before you can shoot them. Right now, there is plenty of meat to go around.

Two cents worth: Speed sells now. Accurate to 75 yds has been done and then some, check out the groups on Matthias's site. Flat is never going to happen regardless of speed attained. For those into speed, more power to them, lol, no pun intended. Until the speed of sound is surpassed, those that believe in string jump are going to look at speed different than those that don't. Hey, we got a bow for everybody!!

[sumner4991]

awshucks . . .you are right. Matthias72 is a professional, shooting under very controlled conditions with field tips and a solid rest. At least I haven't seen the 100 yard shots with broadheads. However, he will be the first to tell you, he doesn't shoot game at 100 yards, mainly because of trajectory and estimating yardage(even with a range finder). Speed is selling . . .I bought a Exomax, my first crossbow, and I bought it for the speed. However, I would not buy another bow just to increase my speed 100 FPS, nor even 200 FPS nor 300 FPS. Because the broadheads available to shoot out of these bows are not effective past 40-50 yards. Therefore, I would have no extension of my shooting range while hunting. Now, if they come out with a bow/arrow combo that is accurate out to 75-100 yards . . .I might be interested because I hunt areas that allow that shot and it would definitely increase my range.

Anyway, for me, an extension of effective shooting range would motivate me to buy a new bow. Not just speed itself. Know what I mean?

[Matthias72]

Thanks for compliments.
On my opinion, if you have a good rangefind, if the animal is eating on 3/4 rear position and it is calm, if your crossbow is well supported by a bipod/tripod, if your hunting arrows allow a group diameter at 70 yards always less than 3", if the weather condition is perfect, if your crossbow and arrows are very quite, if the shooting angle is less than 5%, if your optic allows a perfect image and ALWAYS A PERFECT SET-UP*, then I can easy try a shot in hunting up to 77 yards (70 meters). But only if ALL this things simultanousely are true. I found this set-up on my crossbow. I prefer less speed, a silent shot and a good rangefind than a fast and noise arrow with a flat trajectory. Why? With a good rangefind, the error up 77 yards, normally could be between 0 and 0.5/1 yards maximum. The drop error at 77 yards with 290 fps is 5 cm (2"), with a 350 fps arrow is 3 cm (1.5")... a very small difference. But during the flight the fast arrow will allert the animal with its noise, the slow arrow will arrive quite and terrible...
My limit is 77 yards principally because further the rangefind measurement and the arrow drop per yards become too vast.

*The scope set-up, shot after shot, is the principal problem on long range shooting. Only few scope brands can resist to the terrible crossbow vibractions. On short range you some time don't notice that but in long range that is an enormeous problem.

Matthias

[sumner4991]

Matthias72 . . .you are good with perfect conditions, to take a 77 yard shot with your set-up, right? A longer shot and the arrow drop is too vast. If a bow comes along that can shoot an arrow fast/flat enough to allow you to shoot effectively at a longer range, would you buy it? How much of an extension of range would it take to interest you in buying a new bow? Right now, I don't think a 100-200 FPS faster bow is going to extend anyone's range very much, if any. However, if the manufacturers could effectively increase everyone's range by 20-30 yards, then it's worth taking a look. I bought the fastest bow Excalibur made because I was buying my first bow. If a manufacturer wants to sell me a second bow, then they need to extend my range, not just increase my speed. Therefore, we not only need a better bow, we need better arrow/broadhead too.

If I'm reading everyone correctly . . .it's over kill because we are still making 20 yard shots. It's not over kill if we were making 75 yard shots.

Again, I'm happy hunting the way I'm hunting. The majority of my shots are around 30 yards. However, it would be nice where I hunt to be able to make that 75 yard shot if no other, less risky, shot was available.

[Matthias72]

I'm perfectly daccord with your opinion. The speed without a REAL increasing of hunting range is not useful. Why? Because speed and flat trajectory are only two of many factors to realize one effective long range shot. Only this two factors, as you told perfectly, are not sufficent. Precision in distance, a very quite crossbow, a silent arrow in flight and a heavy kinetic energy in distance are the other important factors. On my opinion is not possible, cause the peculiar characteristic of EVERY arrow (profile, aerodinamic resistence, vanes) to make a fast arrow quite. At 80 yards the principal shooting noise is the arrow in flight. An hypothetical 450fps arrow is always much more slower than the sound speed, and the distance is at 80 yards for example, ALWAYS enough to allert an animal. Only with speed in excess of 650fps, the speed would be enough to win the string jumping reaction...until the moment when someone will make a 650fps crossbow....all speed increasing, in long shooting distance, is not useful.
But we can follow another way: increasing the arrow weight up to a reasonable value, where the speed allow a reasonable flat trajectory. On this way we can obtain many advantages: a quite crossbow, a quite arrow and a great kinetic energy in distance. That is the way I'm following.

[BigTiny]

Of course, then we will have the heated debate about tradition and such. I'm OK hunting with my bow . . .if somebody else wants to use a "High Power" bow, that's their business. Just like I enjoy shooting my .270, if the guy on the other side of the hill is shooting a 7MM, I'm OK with that. The skill is still in the hunt . . .you have to see them before you can shoot them. Right now, there is plenty of meat to go around.

I am beginning to understand this from being on another forum where people like to argue about details like this. My goal this year is to take one deer with crossbow, pistol, shotgun, and rifle respectively. Someone is bound to have a problem with at least one of them!

[sumner4991]

Big Tiny . . . I just view it as people with a passion for what they do. There is nothing wrong with having a passion for something . . .it's the greatest form/level of love that we as humans can obtain. Unfortunately, the people with the passion sometimes do not realize how it effects their ability to see beyond their point of view.

Taking a deer with that many different weapons is certainly a cool goal. It will test several different skills. You might have to add the initials PDH in front of your name after reaching that goal . . .Professional Deer Hunter! Good luck and enjoy. Keep us posted on your success.

[hawg hunter]

Well I started shooting xbows about 4 yrs ago. At that particular time I bought the fastest and biggest bow I could find,Exomag200. Now after a few years of shooting accuracy is much more important than speed. Accuracy is obtained through practice and properly matched arrows. I can draw my 175# exocet or my wife's Phoenix a whole buch easier than my Exomag . All of these bows are extremly accurate . but the lighter ones get used more 2 to 1.

[sumner4991]

Accuracy and speed go hand in hand. The faster the bolt/arrow the less trajectory. A flatter trajectory allows the hunter a margin of error within his/her hunting range. When the bolt/arrow reaches the limit of the hunters' range, it's normally because the trajectory gets too steep to estimate yardage and make an acceptable/responsible shot on a living animal because of human error. Not because of the accuracy of the bow. Higher speeds actually allow for more accuracy . . .whether or not that accuracy can be properly harnessed is another story.

There are trade-offs between bows as hawg hunter has pointed out. We all have our favorites depending on our physical make-up, hunting styles, hunting grounds, and personalities. Every bow Excalibur makes is deadly accurate . . .would be nice to have all the best qualities of the Vixen with the speed of the Exomax. Or would that make the summer threads even more boring?